Class Changes for '06 season, put your .02 in

So we have seen a great growth over the last couple seasons of the SMRRC, lots of new faces each year, and lots of people stepping up class wise. Some classes have been extremely strong, some extremely.........not so strong. Regardless, we want it to be just as good if not better next season, so we will be doing some class modifications to suit the majority, so please chime in if you have any ideas or recomendations. Here are some planned changes, or at least some idea's that we are working on-

1. We will be eliminating the "Stock Cag" class. (No sense arguing, it's already done.)

2. We are considering changing the 4.2 class to included 6.2 powered bikes with a very specific restrictor kit to keep the HP to that of a 4.2, tests are currently underway to develope the kit. The "kit" will consist of specific intake and/or exhaust restrictors, specific pipe allowance, jet sizes etc. The kit will make a preliminary release possibly as soon as the USMGP finals in AZ.

3. We may or may not keep the "Open Pocketbike" class, this is where we need folks to chime in. The open class had it's ups and downs this season as far as ridership goes, I personally would like to see it continue, but obviously we need the numbers to keep running it.

4. We have talked about splitting the "SuperProduction" class into 2 classes, light and heavy weight. For example, the class would be split for riders up to and including 180 pounds in street clothes, and riders 181 and over in street clothes. Again, just a concept, we need your input. "Heavyweight riders can still run in the "lightweight" class if they so desire.

These are most of the proposed changes, our ears are open to others if you have anything to suggest.

Can you consider having the 4.2 and 6.2 classes seperate?? I'm thinking the 6.2 bikes are still going to have an advantage over the 4.2 classs, I know we have a pretty good turnout in the 4.2s

The Reno race I think had them racing together and there was talk about 6.2 bikes being faster? (even with restrictors in place) Could this be at least considered?

The last race somebody made a comment that Jess and Sonny weren't racing the 4.2s next year and somebody said "we might have a chance now"...lol...but if there on 6.2s racing against 4.2s or anybody else in that matter....It still seems to be an advantage racing a 6.2 over a 4.2?

Just a suggestion on how I feel, and I'm sure there are others that would agree. No matter what we'll be there racing next year.

Maybe a Proddy and Super Proddy split?? I think 4.2 is sorta considered like the "beginning" stage of full on minimoto racing then eventually progress to Production and then Super Production then the advanced stage of full on Open class racing. Cag class should just be modded. I am still learing so if it sounds a bit off base bear with me..

Matt said there still keeping mod cag, there's still a pretty good turnout in that class.

"Cag class should just be modded."

well yeah just run a mod cag class only.

I understand the concern over the 4.2 / 6.2 class being combined. But the idea is to restrict the 6.2 heavily to be equal to a well tunes 4.2 . The kit is being devised by several top PB tuners to actually be a true 4.2 equivalent, also on a bit of a side note, the 4.2 will be un-restricted.

The main idea is to get the entire country to a level playing field in the low HP class, but more so to all together eliminate the 4.2 from the U.S. scene, keeping in mind that a lot of people own 4.2s and of course don't want the waste of a motor (or at least a case) so the 6.2 will be, again, heavily restricted.

The other main idea of this is for 1st time buyers of PBs. Buying a 4.2 means you have to either upgrade a whole motor into 6.2 - production - super proddy, or tear down the 4.2 and replace half the motor. This way when you are ready to move up to proddy, revove the restrictor kit, and put a bigger pipe, and you are ready to go.

I assure you the restrictor kit will definately bring the power down to par with the 4.2

I think my points were already answered.

Ivan

For sure, we'll have to wait and see how "on par" with the 4.2s this kit is while in competition. Overall I think it's a good idea, we just need to wait and see.


Ivan

I think the class structure is good. Crummy turnout in stock cag, sure mean the class should be eliminated. I for one think that is a good call. Modded cag was a little better, but not the 15 bikes we had the year before. On the 4.2 note a good rider can always over come a slight power advantage. look at Al on his 4.2. he took 6th in the proddy race. and ben got a top 10 finish on his... Last thought do you think it is wise to split the class on weight. with a 12 to 16 bike turnout this would take a large class and make it a medium and a small class.

What kind of promotions needs to be done to make the pocketbikes an even better turn out like they were in 2004? or will the numbers dwindle more each year?

I have another question that may or may not pertain but I thought I would at least ask.. If a rider is racing 4.2 with a restricted 6.2 will he be able to run the same bike in the Super Production class removing all restrictions and will the rider have to under go tech everytime the change has been made?

To answer Mels question, I am unsure of whether or not the restrictor kit will be easy enough to remove or not to run in both classes, if it is, then I don't really see an issue with doing so. As for splitting the Proddy class, you would still as a "heavyweight" be able to run in the "lightweight" class, so I think most would still do so. Also we will be doing a large amount of promotion for next season in hopes of growing again. Also the overall turnout has been better this year in the Italian classes, we just don't have 25 stock Cags anymore . I feel at the moment next year will be just as good if not better numbers wise. Just have to keep at it.

Ted, is the addition of 6.2's exclusive to AC engines or are H2O engines allowed also?

I don't think that this statement is True. I don't know why you are smashing on PB's if WE ARE THE BIGGEST GROUP OUT THERE IN THE SMRRC RACING (MEANING SUPERPRODDY and 4.2's)! And that class hasn't dwindled 1 bit. We support our PB community at Stockton, and to see our own team members look down on us just puzzles me...... But if you are reffering to the CAG TIM, I take back all my words (SORRY).....

Also Ted, regarding the seperation of the SUPERPRODDY class, I don't think that that is a good IDEA. Let's look at ROBBIE. He is almost in the 200lb mark, and he is still a competitor in Superproddy. Lets keep the class together. It is always funner to race with 20 people rather than just 3, RIGHT??? Also if you think about it, who is over 180lbs in the SMRCC????

With that in mind I think since we shouldn't split the Superproddy group, this will allow us to keep our OPEN CLASS. Even though the #'s aren't there, but I wish it could be, there are still those few (THANKS VANDOR, THANKS BOONZ) that race in that class with their production bike. With that said KEEP THE OPEN, AND KEEP THE SUPERPRODDY CLASS JUST 1 CLASS.

And with the 4.2's and 6.2's. Right at the moment there are no 6.2's out there racing at Stockton. Why should we follow the rest of the country if majority of us already have a 4.2 motor. I think that we are happy where we are, and what we have. If a 6.2 wants to compete, let him try with us BIG BOYS in superproddy, but if he is a beginer let the rider ride with the 4.2's then. And if the rider wins 1 first place in our 4.2 class, then he can't run in that class (4.2's, Of course the 6.2 will have to run a restrictor and all of those special stuff that will be in the kit when running with the 4.2's) anymore, and have to run in the SUPERPRODDY's. I don't think that it is fair to boot all the 4.2's out of our area, if we a lot of them supported that series of motor. Why are you going to Punish everyone that bought this motor??? It isn't their fault.....

Anyways' what is a 6.2??? All it needs is a race pipe and your in SUPERPRODDY, RIGHT???

JUST MY .02, YAH FEEL MEEH!!!!!!!!

1. I don't think Tim was ripping on the PB's, just throwin out some thoughts. However Anthony is right, the PB's are the largest classes out there at the moment.

2. I don't think the Open class is going anywhere, we have eliminated the stock Cag class, which opens the doors for another class or the possible seperation of another.

3. As for over 180 lb. riders-
Steve
Ted
Rick
Mark
Sonny
Mike V.
Martin
and a few others who's name I cant remember off hand. Also I know of a few more people in the over 180 club that will be racing this coming season.

As for Robbie, he is the exception, not the rule, and he does very well in the Open class, he does fair in the Proddy class, again, because of weight. Hell, I do alright in the Proddy class, but there are pretty much none of us in the "sumo class" that are capable of taking a podium finish in a field of 130-160 lb riders, unless we get lucky.

Anyways, its just a thought thrown out there for people to chew on.

3. Back to the 4.2 thing. The addition of a Restricted 6.2 bike to the "4.2" class is not to punish or make an uneven playing field. The national standard is starting to lean thais way to make the sport more affordable over the course of a persons race "career", instead of your first bike being a 4.2 w/ a series 1 case, that cannot be upgraded, it is a series 2 based motor that can readily and affordably be upgraded from the 4.2 / 6.2 class to Super proddy, or even open.

Also we have to start looking at this from a national standpoint, all the local clubs need to start to develope an unified class structure if we are to grow into a legitimate form of racing, or at least a solid launching platform for jr. racers. (By the way, Devil's Stable will not be fielding a 4.2 / 6.2 this season, so there is no bias here, just trying to thing nationally, which is where alot of other clubs are headed)

4. To answer MMP's question, the class will be open to both a/c and w/c motors to the best of my knowledge, which adds an extra degree of difficulty in creating a restrictor package. But again, this is by no means set in stone.

Last year we had the mod cag class, then 4.2s were added with the mod cags....Which I knew the 4.2s would be up front....So more 4.2s were showing up and given their own class....Now 6.2s are being added to the 4.2 class....

With the elimination of stock cag Why couldn't we just add a 6.2 class of their own....That way we know there won't be any talk of 6.2 bikes being on par with the 4.2s....Can this at least be considered??

Okay Ted, it is great to see that the POCKETBIKE COMMUNITY IN THE US is finally getting together in setting a STANDARD with all orginizations.

As for the 4.2 a lot of research is needed to be able to run these motors with the 6.2's. I'm sorry but the people with the 4.2 will at least have to buy a dual reed adapter to keep up with the 6.2's IMO. Will there be a deal out for them if that is necessarry or a group buy purchase if things are needed to be boughten to set these rules? Also a restrictor, like you said will need to be placed on a 6.2 motor to restrict the motors capablities. This may make the playing field even with both of these two things. I guess this class should be called the 5.2hp class from now on! J/K

How about the Superproddy's? Are there gonna be any changes to this class besides letting the Bizta motors, and the AMG motors run with the the POLINI's? IMO having a BZM motor (TRUE BZM MOTOR, not a frankenstein polini/bzm), the top end is deadly as well as the bottom end and IMO can out run a POLINI BASED MOTOR on a straight. Is there anything to make the playing field more even with the series 2 motor to make it more competive with the BZM/AMG's? I wouldn't want my other fellow PB'ers have to feel that they need to spend $1000 on a motor to be competitive in this class.

*MAYBE RUN A 15 MM carb on the Polini series 2 motors to hang with the bzm/amg's (limited to a 14mm carb)?*

YEAH BABY LETS START TO FLY NOW!


Just something to think about........

Will running a restrictive air box do much at all on a 6.2? Anthony makes some
very interesting and good points with the Super Proddy comments.

There is a lot of R&D going into the developement of the "Restricted 6.2", we are even looking at purchasing a low HP chassis dyno to to assist in the design and developement of not only the restrictor kit, but lots of other things as well. And actually, IMO, I would opt to be a bit harsher on the restricted 6.2, and restrict it to the bottom end of the 4.2s to eliminate the perceived advantages.


The SP class will stay the same with the obvious exception of allowing the BZM and Testarossa motors to also run. The class has not changed at all, the class states that you are limited to a 3 port motor and a 14mm SHA carb. and any pipe. The fact that manufacturers have finally stepped up and are reworking their motors to make more HP is really irrelevant. It goes for any type of racing, as technology advances, so does the sport. Obviously some people will not be able to afford to step up to one of these new high perfin 3 port motors, but the BZM top end kits are $299, and IMO are just as capable as the complete BZM 3 port, and much quicker (when set up correctly to a straight Polini motor)

Super Production and Open are the premier PB race classes, and like any premier class, it can get costly to stay competitive, everyone needs to look at what they can afford, and take that route.

All this chat is great, please keep it coming, I will be meeting with other club reps in AZ to get a better feel for what the rest of the country is doing, and try to finalize our rule set for next year.

Please keep the posts coming

I think we may be losing a bit of sight on the proposition of the 4.2/restricted 6.2 class.

Like some here, I have a few reservations about the equality of the 4.2s versus the restricted 6.2s. However, Ted is committing to doing his best to making it an even-play field. Secondly, he’s already said his team will NOT be running in this class. My take is this, let's see the outcome. I'm sure we could get technical and begin dissecting how it will NEVER be an even-playing field, but personally, I’d like to see them try.

It’s a good idea and even if it’s not perfect, it’s certainly a start to standardizing PBs in the US.

The reality is that we are probably not going to be very affected by this. The main reason being we have a very strong 4.2 class. Perhaps someone will get a 6.2 next season, it will be then that we’ll have to see if the “kit” does its job.

I also like Anthony’s idea that if the 6.2 rider wins or begins to clearly dominate in the 4.2 class, he/she should move up to the next class. After all, the ONLY reason this is being suggested nationwide is to allow new riders an easy introduction into the PB scene.

I would also go as far as suggesting an age limit on the ability to use a restricted 6.2 in the 4.2 class. Ted, please correct me if I’m wrong, but one of the reasons for the 6.2 restriction kit is to provide parents with an entry package which will allow them to move their kids up the ladder as they get better. That being the case, I would see nothing wrong with limiting the age to a junior range. The logic being that kids (less than 12) would need the help of a restrictor in order to not kill themselves on the 6.2 bike. I don’t think it’s too far-fetched to expect older kids to have better hand-eye coordination and as a result not need the restriction kit.

Ivan

Actually restricting an airbox would be better than a restricting plate on the exhaust. Ask me why, I don't know, but I read somewhere that a restrictor plate on the exhaust side is actually bad for the piston/cylinder, which causes more wear and tear on it. Has to do with the Shape, bounce, blah, blah that two stokes makes... Ted would probably explaine it a little better....

Thanks Mello for the words. I just want it to be fair in all possiblities in the Superproddy class. No one should be ahead of anyone else because of the funds! But remember slapping a 15 mm carb will take some tuning though. It is more to it than just replacing 1 jet...... (like the 14mm's)

Aye Ted, do you think that you can see if the 15mm carb can be the set standard in the official PB rulebook if you think that it is a fair rule?

The only reason why I bring up the 15mm carb rule is because of this:

I know that technology is not to blame on this, but I am trying to make the playing field fair. Let's look at another class that I race in MINIMOTO. The APRILLIA RS50cc and the NSR50cc. Both are watercooled, both have the same carb, both are 5 port in stock form, and both are 50cc motors. But you ask me what the difference here is:

The NSR in stock form can blow the doors off the aprillia in standard form. That is why the Aprillia needs a bigger carb, and a different pipe to compete against the NSR50's. And that is why the class of super50 in majority of the minimoto associations classified the NSR50's with MODIFIED RS50cc.

With that being said since the POLINI are old technology as like the aprillia's, more power is needed to compete against the new technology that of the AMG's and BZM's (like the NSR's)

I am just suggesting on how to make the playing field fair. I am just putting my .02 out there for anyone who wants to listen to my suggestions. It is better to do it now that to be caught up in it, in the begining of the year.

Thanks