Hello to OMMRA racers far and wide, or at least those of you in webland. Sept 17th seems like a very long time to wait, and seems like forever since we last got to dice it up on the track doesn't it?!
I've been working on proposal for next years rules and wanted to give you a little heads up on whats going on. A lot of it is just some basic clean-up, updating and stuff of no real issue. But the class layout is looking a little different so I thought I'd give you all a quick rough idea of what's being thought about for next year classes. In the next week or so we can have a draft of the rules posted up and then discuss it at the next race!
Jr. Novice wording is changed to clarify some stuff, but idea remains about the same.
Jr. Cag would stay pretty much as is and Air-cooled only.
Jr. Production would be Air-cooled series 1, single reed ONLY, 17.5 restrictor (cag class may run in this class)
Jr. GP would be air or water-cooled Polini based series 1 (17.5mm restrictor) or series 2 (14mm restrictor), no race cranks (Jr Production may run in the class)
Jr GP Open would be 8-12yo, air or water-cooled, 17.5mm restrictor.
Sr. Novice would stays about the same.
Sr. Open Cag stays about the same
Sr. Production, Polini-bases series 1 (17/5 restrictor) or 2 (14mm restrictor), stock Polini cylinder, head, and hemisperical topped piston, no racing/stuffed cranks.
Sr. Super Production: stays as is, current wording would allow the AMG type engines.
Sr. GP open: stays as is
Rules get into a little more detail of course, but you get the idea. With all the changes that are happening out there, and the new stuff thats going to hit us I feel this is a pretty good basic class layout. Of course, like always, please PM me with any comments and concerns you have. To be honest I'd like to think that anything you bring up I had already thought about and then had reasons I didn't want to do it that way but seriously, any comments will be fully listened to.
Hope everyone is well and their infernal little machines are happy!
Jr. Novice wording is changed to clarify some stuff, but idea remains about the same.
Jr. cag would stay pretty much as is and Air-cooled only.
Jr. Production would be Air-cooled series 1, single reed ONLY, 17.5 restrictor (cag class may run in this class)
Jr. GP would be air or water-cooled polini based series 1 (17.5mm restrictor) or series 2 (14mm restrictor), no race cranks (Jr Production may run in the class)
Jr GP Open would be 8-12yo, air or water-cooled, 17.5mm restrictor.
Question: You didn't state what HP bikes were for each class. Am I right in thinking Jr. Prod is a 4.2, Jr GP is a 6.2... what's the max on the Jr GP Open.
Obviously the restrictors are to run the larger bike in the smaller HP class (so we don't have to have 3 bikes). But I'm confused as to the diff between Jr GP & Jr GP Open, other then the Open doesn't all 5-7 year olds.
Question: You didn't state what HP bikes were for each class. Am I right in thinking Jr. Prod is a 4.2, Jr GP is a 6.2... what's the max on the Jr GP Open.
Obviously the restrictors are to run the larger bike in the smaller HP class (so we don't have to have 3 bikes). But I'm confused as to the diff between Jr GP & Jr GP Open, other then the Open doesn't all 5-7 year olds.
Ok, now I've confused myself!
I get what kinds of bikes can or can't run in each JR class after having talked to a few folks. But I guess now I'm asking what's the MAX bike per class (stated in HP would be convenient).
I think the gist of your question is... given today's landscape (and the bikes purchased to race in OMRRA) where do they fall?
I really don't care what the older folks run, so you guys do what you want. I am looking at the junior class as a point of entry. My take on it is... get the most tracktime without buying multiple bikes. Classes would be:
A. The Cag stuff.
B. More Cag stuff.
1. Misc. cags/4.2 air unrestricted or 6.2 air/8.5 water restricted, similar to what we have today. (non-cag must be stock Polini motor)
2. 6.2 air/8.5 water unrestricted, 10hp water restricted, similar to what we have today. (must be stock Polini motor)
3. 10hp water. This would allow the 6.2 air/8.5 water to also run the class but they would be underpowered. (age 8-12 restriction) no powerplant restriction (doesn't have to be Polini based).
Something like that. Though just have one class 1., and then run two of the 2. class would be fine too. It would give the kids more time without costing the parents more $. As is the rules rough above, there would be people with three bikes to run, which isn't the point. A simple second run of our current 6.2 class would do just fine for the juniors.
I think the gist of your question is... given today's landscape (and the bikes purchased to race in OMRRA) where do they fall?
I really don't care what the older folks run, so you guys do what you want. I am looking at the junior class as a point of entry. My take on it is... get the most tracktime without buying multiple bikes. Classes would be:
A. The cag stuff.
B. More cag stuff.
1. Misc. cags/4.2 air unrestricted or 6.2 air/8.5 water restricted, similar to what we have today. (non-cag must be stock polini motor)
2. 6.2 air/8.5 water unrestricted, 10hp water restricted, similar to what we have today. (must be stock polini motor)
3. 10hp water. This would allow the 6.2 air/8.5 water to also run the class but they would be underpowered. (age 8-12 restriction) no powerplant restriction (doesn't have to be polini based).
Something like that. Though just have one class 1., and then run two of the 2. class would be fine too. It would give the kids more time without costing the parents more $. As is the rules rough above, there would be people with three bikes to run, which isn't the point. A simple second run of our current 6.2 class would do just fine for the juniors.
difficulty is that:
4.2 vs. 6.2 restricted is apples to oranges. Different motors, pipes, etc.
6.2 vs. 8.5 restricted again is apples to oranges, but for a different reason. The difference between a 6.2 and 8.5 is often in the pipe, and OMRRA has very lax rules on pipes.
the destinctions between the 6.2, 8.5 and 10hp are often ambiguous and splitting them up is technically difficult. For instance, the Giannini 6.2 runs with DM 10s all day long. The 6.2 is not necessarily underpowered, and if you are talking about kids, only one kid I know of even has access to a 8.5 or greater hp bike. This type of higher hp junior class is rarely run anywhere in the nation (although I would love to see Mario, Robert or TJ make a go of an open class 5 port bike! It would be nuts!) I ran my 8.5 in the open 12-15 hp class and won. Racing is more about the rider than it is about the bike, but I understand about trying to form production classes around groups of similar original equipment so that mechanical advantages are minimized. Distinctions between mechanical numbers that are not delineated clearly by pipe, or other equipment which makes the hp numbers possible, is pragmatically useless.
On a similar but different note, I think that the reason why the Senior Production grid is never run is because none of the seniors have Series 1 bikes or want to run a restrictor. if there was a senior 6.2 class, which is what I thought Senior Production was supposed to be, then the class might actually happen. Making rules for a class that doesn't exist seems a little pedantic, but, then again, as several others have said, the racing in Oregon is about the kids not the adults. Us adults don't deserve...(edited out soap box garbage).
Honestly, I could give a rat if is a stock 6.2 or an 8.5 via a race pipe. The point of the outline I gave is to establish generally comparable (read: not identical) power delivery. The competative statement is in reference to the same rider on the same bike. Throw TJ on each of the bikes, have him throw down some lap times and see if there is any real difference.
The whole point of OMRRA junior class pocketbikes is to develop the next generation of big bike riders. With such a mission, tight clean racing that maximizes rider development (read: as many calsses as possible with min investment) is a requirement of any rule set.
Honestly, I could give a rat if is a stock 6.2 or an 8.5 via a race pipe. The point of the outline I gave is to establish generally comparable (read: not identical) power delivery. The competative statement is in reference to the same rider on the same bike. Throw TJ on each of the bikes, have him throw down some lap times and see if there is any real difference.
The whole point of OMRRA junior class pocketbikes is to develop the next generation of big bike riders. With such a mission, tight clean racing that maximizes rider development (read: as many calsses as possible with min investment) is a requirement of any rule set.
It is obvious that you are not concerned with the differences between a 6.2 and an 8.5. However, if you are interested in "establishing a generally comparable power delivery" class structure, then maybe you might consider the wisdom of other racing organizations. SEPRA, ********, TSMMR, USMGP, they all have reached a consensus with regard to what guidelines can make a mechanically competitive playing field. Sending TJ out to determine how he can ride lap times on different bikes is a quite rudimentary way to reinvent the wheel that has already been thoroughly hashed out by other racing organizations.
Well first off I'd like to thank those of you that have sent e-mails or PMs, Some of them were very well thought out, and I thank you very much! I hope the responses I sent back were adequate, and that you know your comments have been heard and will continue to be thought about as we move forward in this process.
One common question was difference between Jr GP and JR GP Open? The basic idea being thrown out here is that Jr. GP could be the Polini powered stuff, and the new AMG engines could be included in Jr. Open (In Sr. it would be in Super-proddy). I was curious to see what the reaction to this would be, and how you all felt about a class allowing the Jrs on larger Hp bikes than we have in the past. I'm still not so sure about it, but so far I've even received a suggestion from one parent to remove the restrictor requirement in that class, so at least one of you feels it would be good I guess.
Michael, I'm really sorry but i just can't make enough sense out of most of your post or class recommendations to offer much comment, except to say I don't know where you get the idea that the classes as proposed would require buying multiple bikes.
Chris, I have NO idea where you are coming from with your comments about the Senior production grid, nor do I have any clue as to why you feel the need to be on a soapbox (even if your rants were edited out). The reason the Sr grid has not been run this year is because the adults (and you know you are one of them, Mr. Open-class-monster man ) have shown absolutely no interest in running true 6.2 bikes, I think I may be the only omrra adult that even owns one! The reason the series I and a restrictor on 6.2s are both in there is that, until last year (when myself and the other 4.2 adult quite racing with us), it was the only way we could make a 3 bike grid in that class! If the adults want to start supporting a true 6.2 proddy class then let it be known and we can sure correct the class to fit with what the races want. It would be very helpful if you would also offer some well-thought out wording on how to define a true 6.2 for that class.
Continue to march everyone, the rules are in no way set in stone (or even sand) yet.
Well first off I'd like to thank those of you that have sent e-mails or PMs, Some of them were very well thought out, and I thank you very much! I hope the responses I sent back were adequate, and that you know your comments have been heard and will continue to be thought about as we move forward in this process.
One common question was difference between Jr GP and JR GP Open? The basic idea being thrown out here is that Jr. GP could be the polini powered stuff, and the new AMG engines could be included in Jr. Open (In Sr. it would be in Super-proddy). I was curious to see what the reaction to this would be, and how you all felt about a class allowing the Jrs on larger Hp bikes than we have in the past. I'm still not so sure about it, but so far I've even received a suggestion from one parent to remove the restrictor requirement in that class, so at least one of you feels it would be good I guess.
Michael, I'm really sorry but i just can't make enough sense out of most of your post or class recommendations to offer much comment, except to say I don't know where you get the idea that the classes as proposed would require buying multiple bikes.
Chris, I have NO idea where you are coming from with your comments about the Senior production grid, nor do I have any clue as to why you feel the need to be on a soapbox (even if your rants were edited out). The reason the Sr grid has not been run this year is because the adults (and you know you are one of them, Mr. Open-class-monster man ) have shown absolutely no interest in running true 6.2 bikes, I think I may be the only omrra adult that even owns one! The reason the series I and a restrictor on 6.2s are both in there is that, until last year (when myself and the other 4.2 adult quite racing with us), it was the only way we could make a 3 bike grid in that class! If the adults want to start supporting a true 6.2 proddy class then let it be known and we can sure correct the class to fit with what the races want. It would be very helpful if you would also offer some well-thought out wording on how to define a true 6.2 for that class.
Continue to march everyone, the rules are in no way set in stone (or even sand) yet.
mark
If you have no idea where I am coming from on those previous comments, then just disregard them (really not important or constructive). With regard to showing no interest in running true 6.2 powered bikes, there definetely has been interest. Around the country, stock air cooled Giannini 6.2's are run in the production classes, which would mean that both mitch and my bikes would be legal in that class provided that it did not include the need for a restrictor, (which we would rather not run). Furthermore, Shawn as an air cooled 6.2 GRC GP as well as other bikes he could ride, Mitch also could ride Nico's air cooled 4.2. Next year Robert will be graduating into the Senior class, and he could ride a 4.2 or 6.2 in it. I believe that Shonie and Joey have 4.2 or 6.2 BMS bikes that they haven't sold yet, and it would be really great to get a second class that they could run in. With rules similar to SEPRA, USMGP or other orgs, our senior production (not super prod) could actually be one of the biggest grids out there. With proprietary OMRRA rules like it has had in the past, the grid will not be run.
Bossman Mark -
I was under the impression that Pete would loose a class to run in on comp equip (4.2) as he has a series II moter, and would end up having to run a class up to get a second class to run putting him against potentially bikes with twice the power. If that isn't the intention or true form, then I rescind my comments.
It boils down to this... It would be nice to be able to run three races, even if one of the classes was run twice to accompish it. This is no replacement for seat time in a racing environment. Shortly more frequent races of shorter length may do just as well or a double header schedule.
Bossman Mark -
I was under the impression that Pete would loose a class to run in on comp equip (4.2) as he has a series II moter, and would end up having to run a class up to get a second class to run putting him against potentially bikes with twice the power. If that isn't the intention or true form, then I rescind my comments.
It boils down to this... It would be nice to be able to run three races, even if one of the classes was run twice to accompish it. This is no replacement for seat time in a racing environment. Shortly more frequent races of shorter length may do just as well or a double header schedule.
so you want to buy a bike that could be competitive in 2 or 3 classes? I don't know any type of racing that this would be possible in, unless you run a lesser hp bike in a higher hp class just to get the extra seat time. You could buy a series 1 4.2 and run it in the 6.2 class to get the extra seat time, but one must accept that it is rarely pragmatic to use the same bike in different classes unless one is willing to accept the possibility that the bike is not going to be as competitive in both classes.
That said, if it was me I would run a 4.2 in the 6.2 class, since this is commonly done (especially if you use the 4.2 to 6.2 hop up kit). Restrictors aren't the best way of levelling the playing field with powerplants that are different.
It really isn't that much of a stretch. If a 6.2 can run in 6.2, in 4.2 with a restrictor, and only be 20% down on HP in a bigger class, then that would do it. Big bikes do it all the time, a 600 ss running in 6P, 6S, 7p, 7s, and a really good rider stretching it to Op, and Os. A 250 or 600 can run just fine at a road course with liter bikes. With the power to weight ratios being even wider (between riders) in PB, there isn't any reason why that wouldn't work here as well.
If that isn't reality, then OMRRA should just run two junior classes that one bike could run and do a double header format, just like the MX orgs do. Allowing kids to get max seat time with the least monetary investment. After all, this is about the kids.
so you want to buy a bike that could be competitive in 2 or 3 classes? I don't know any type of racing that this would be possible in, unless you run a lesser hp bike in a higher hp class just to get the extra seat time. You could buy a series 1 4.2 and run it in the 6.2 class to get the extra seat time, but one must accept that it is rarely pragmatic to use the same bike in different classes unless one is willing to accept the possibility that the bike is not going to be as competitive in both classes.
That said, if it was me I would run a 4.2 in the 6.2 class, since this is commonly done (especially if you use the 4.2 to 6.2 hop up kit). Restrictors aren't the best way of levelling the playing field with powerplants that are different.
I agree! One bike won't be competitive in all 3 classes (Mabee two). The 4.2 engine and the 6.2 are far more different than a 6.2air and a 6.2 water. If a rider has a 6.2 air he should run in the upper two classes. If the competition has watercooled bikes it is not an advantage. Running all 3 grids competitively would require at least two bikes, a 4.2 and a 6.2 air or watercooled.
Mark is on target with the rules proposal, it looks good to me. If I changed anything it would be to loose the restrictors in the junior gp open.
Its good to see that things are already in the works. The last seasons rule changes came on so late that there was limited time to order equipment to comply with the new rules. The sooner this stuff can be finalized the better.
Allowing kids to get max seat time with the least monetary investment. After all, this is about the kids.
As I should clarify and did to mark in a PM, earlier I voiced my [edited soapbox dissatisfaction] because I have heard repeatedly that in Oregon, racing is "all about the kids", and such statements are often in the context of disregarding, or showing less regard for the adults. I find this pattern unnerving. In my race organization, every rider is equally valuable, and no one is to be thought of as less valuable. Whether novice or expert, junior or senior, all should be allowed proper consideration, safety, and dedication towards crafting proper rules. Surely this kind of attitude will drive away the adult rirders, which I believe are a critical part of the kids having fun. Most every practice or race day will kid hang out in our pits, asking questions, smiling and laughing, watching us race and learning. Kids would prefer that the adults are there, and the adults enjoy the kids racing as well. Drive away the adults and I doubt the racing would be financially feasible for OMRRA, or would even occur.
As I should clarify and did to mark in a PM, earlier I voiced my [edited soapbox dissatisfaction] because I have heard repeatedly that in Oregon, racing is "all about the kids", and such statements are often in the context of disregarding, or showing less regard for the adults.
Sanfret said 'this is about the kids'.
I'm pretty sure he meant the discussion of the junior classes is about the kids. Yes, OMRRA developed the pocketbike program to give young riders a place to ride. It's in OMRRA's best interest to create the next generation of bike big riders for their club. Plus the fact that obviously kids need guidance and protection in life more then adults, so OMRRA always looks out for their best interest (rather then adult).
I'm pretty sure the parents of junior kids aren't that interested in the Senior classes or what they run - esp if their kids have several years before they move up, if they ever do - many of these kids have plans for bike bikes as they progress - which is where OMRRA's interest lies. Give these kids the skills that will make them awesome and SAFE riders when they get to big bikes. These kids will be able to hold lines, etc.
Because my interest is in junior riders, I don't want to spend 6k on 3 bikes so my son has a competitive bike in each class. He's a kid. Tomorrow he might want to play baseball instead. But what would be great is getting my $ worth out of bikes he can only ride at the track. So more classes would be great - lets just maximize bikes we have or MAYBE purchasing 1 more bike (not 2) to be competitive.
As the proposed rules stand today, my son can only legally race in 2 of the 3 classes proposed with his current bike that we just purchased this year. Having a 3rd class he could race would be ideal.
I would like to see the Novice class divided into 2 sections; beginner and intermediate. We have several riders who are currently in the "in-between" stage, too fast in the general novice grid, and not quite fast enough for the gp or open class. If the idea behind changing the current class structure is to keep the riders safe, I believe this would be a good addition (based on my observations while being on a corner).
I would like to see the Novice class divided into 2 sections; beginner and intermediate. We have several riders who are currently in the "in-between" stage, too fast in the general novice grid, and not quite fast enough for the gp or open class. If the idea behind changing the current class structure is to keep the riders safe, I believe this would be a good addition (based on my observations while being on a corner).
but seriously, any comments will be fully listened to.
) have shown absolutely no interest in running true 6.2 bikes, I think I may be the only omrra adult that even owns one! The reason the series I and a restrictor on 6.2s are both in there is that, until last year (when myself and the other 4.2 adult quite racing with us), it was the only way we could make a 3 bike grid in that class! If the adults want to start supporting a true 6.2 proddy class then let it be known and we can sure correct the class to fit with what the races want. It would be very helpful if you would also offer some well-thought out wording on how to define a true 6.2 for that class.
