I was hoping for some guidance on something that really isn't explicit in the OMRRA rule book, but is generally understood outside the pocketbike scene.
Clarification on what constitutes a production motorcycle. What are OMRRA's expectation on homogolation? When does 'one off' become production? In supersport (section B in the omrra rulebook) it is 100 units for 4cyl, and 50 for twin or single cyl. There is no such restriction in superbike.
I take production = supersport (as it does in other clubs). And GP = superbike (again as it does in other established clubs). If we say that GP is = to superbike then if I build a bike in my garage, and agree to sell them to someone, soon as I hit two units sold to a 3rd party (not one off), I am legal in GP, but not until I hit 50 identical units wih identical specifications (zero changes across all of those 50 units) am I legal in supersport.
Honestly this whole pocketbike class structure and rule set is a bit weird. In all my years of MX and Big Bike racing I have never seen such plyable rules and all the various pushing of rules to wrap around an immature manufacturing market.
I would love to buy a bike and have it not be trumped by some new bike that someone throws together in their garage witha polinii head, crank from a cag and a new case from a local machinist, and then claim to be a manufacturer so it is legal. That is not the spirit of the rules, I would prefer GP to turn into a run what you brought class and leave production for us mortals. Heck even a spec class would be great. I have no interest in getting involved in a sport (even for my kid) where it is a one up race to empty the bank account.
I can't wait until these little bikes show up with superbike cartridges at $1700 a hit. Please someone tell me OMRRA is looking out for me and my wallet.
Sanfret,
We at OMRRA are looking out for our competitors. We would rather see close racing that rely on rider skills than a run away on a non-production bike. The sprit of our rules hopefully covers this. Tuners like Giannini are testing all of the ruling bodies in this sport. This has been the challenge all along. Early on in this sport, some of the big manufactures added changes to their production line-up that caused a stir too. So we are doing the best we can to keep the classes competitive and will continue to do so.
You're obviously a knowledgable and informed person and have a good understanding of some of the tough issues that are out there in this crazy little world of pocketbike racing. And you know this isn't an issue that is only facing OMRRA, it's something that is being discussed all over the country. One thing *I* know is that, over here in little OMRRAville, we have some of the best racers in the country, the best volunteers in the country, and one of the best Big bike motorcycle racing organizations in the country, all working together in the continuing mission to create a not-only-fair but down-right-outstanding race experience for everyone. Never going to be perfect, always going to be something... but there is no better team working to make it happen than right here.
OMRRAville: small fires don't scare us, it's ALWAYS raining
Quote:
Originally Posted by adios
Sanfret,
We at OMRRA are looking out for our competitors. We would rather see close racing that rely on rider skills than a run away on a non-production bike. The sprit of our rules hopefully covers this. Tuners like Giannini are testing all of the ruling bodies in this sport. This has been the challenge all along. Early on in this sport, some of the big manufactures added changes to their production line-up that caused a stir too. So we are doing the best we can to keep the classes competitive and will continue to do so.
Several issues are covered here, for a response to Sanfret.
First, the argument by analogy of using supersport big bike racing and pocketbike racing is useful in this context. With regard to one manufacturer building a bike that retains a significant advantage, this is common in big bike racing. This year it is the GSXR, next year it could be the Yamaha R1. To get on the podium, one not only has to be a very skilled rider, but also you have to buy a competitive bike. This is a fact of racing, in both big bikes and in pcket bike racing.
Production classes are meant to be weighted more towards rider skill, with riders being limited to utilizing manufactured bikes that are not overbored or customized excessively. In big bikes, there are production numbers that constitute 'manufactured'. The definition of "prototype" is pretty clear. But similarly, the definition of "production" should also be clear...made by a manufacturer in quantity.
"I would love to buy a bike and have it not be trumped by some new bike that someone throws together in their garage witha Polini. head, crank from a cag and a new case from a local machinist, and then claim to be a manufacturer so it is legal."
This type of bike, a "frankenbike" would not be legal in any OMRRA class. a bike has to be "manufacture production specification" and "available for public sale/purchase". However, a Giannini is a mass produced bike (serial numbers are now beyond 50 bikes I am told). Giannini is manufactuing the R1 in quantities that are impressive. At this weekend's New York race, there was at least a dozen R1s, which took most every podium spot. I checked my frame number in my BMS, and I race on number 15...so if someone wants to impose a 50 unit minimum it could interfere with BMS even. At the current rate of sales, Giannini could surprass BMS sales volumes in short order.
"Clarification on what constitutes a production motorcycle. What are OMRRA's expectation on homogolation? When does 'one off' become production?"
When a bike is mass produced and offered for public sale. Even if you buy the GRC RR frame #1, it is a production bike, not a prototype. A mass produced bike can be ordered in quantity, and a manufacturer sells the same bike to multiple buyers based upon that manufacturer's design specs.
"I can't wait until these little bikes show up with superbike cartridges at $1700 a hit. Please someone tell me OMRRA is looking out for me and my wallet."
I am sure that OMRRA is interested in maintaining a fun and safe environment, and allowing a home made one-off bike would bring in significant danger, liability and a potential lack of fairness. But then again, racing always costs money, and having a fast bike, no matter what class or type of racing, always costs money.
and for Tony:
"Tuners like Giannini are testing all of the ruling bodies in this sport."
Giannini may be a tuner, but he is also a manufacturer. He purchased the rights to the sale of GEM bikes and designs in the US. He then moved to mass produce his own redesign of the GEM design in quantity. The motors are made and assembled in Italy, but the bikes are assembled (manufactured) here. At the point where Giannini manufactured his own bike and offered them for public sale in quantity he became a manufacturer. Now that he has sold several dozen in the USA, it just affirms the point that he is a manufacturer. Every racing organization in the country recognizes him as a manufacturer. If someone at the track thinks that a rider is racing with a cheater motor, then they should protest it whether it is in a Giannini, BMS, GRC, whatever.
Apparently there are some thoughts on this and also some movement around this I wasn't aware of. I really don't know anything about G or MD BMS or Pollini bikes. My question was from reading this board, the omrra rule book, MX racing experience, and the cheating and rule pushing that takes place in every race series in the world.
I frankly don't care who builds what, or what is accepted. I was want to know what is available, what is legal, and what the grounds are for expansion of the legal bikes, and classes they can run in. I am more concerned with getting into a sport with the intention of guiding and training my son on bikes that are competitive. Based on that fact (strengthened by the replies) that these bikes are so immature, I truly see the current landscape as big bikes were in '92. Before the influx of titanium and unatainium hit the bikes. Where bikes were $5K and are now $10K. Every year the best bike changes (this year the 1K to have is the GSXR), but never does the bike change mid-season in production based classes, in superbike and GP sure. As 'frankenbikes' are legal in superbike and GP classes. GP by its nature is a 'frankenbike' class. Superbike, you have to have a stock-spec frame, but beyond that, it is a free for all.
I really don't care if my kid is on a slower bike, I would prefer it, it will teach him to win with his head, not his wrist. Though if I am going to drive to races, pack up the family and put him through the paces to have his butt handed to him because someone showed up with #3 or #8 or series B of some tuner turned manufacturer, that really takes the fun out of it. There is no way to rightly even know if anything is worth protesting, and billet heads, titanium valves and such could be the norm for that series bike. But with no published specs on the bikes, there is no way to know if all 5, 50, 100 or 300 bikes where done the same. This is where sanctioning orgs keep the field level and pockets from being emptied as folks one up each other. No published specs for a specific bike, then it is illlegal to run that bike, period. Otherwise who is going to verify homogolation? Nobody will. So it will literally be a bring what you brought free for all. I seriously have no interest in that. That is why orgs like AFM have a literal stock class, no mods except brakelines and brakepads (for safety). Racing costs money, but if you say sure to everything under the sun, then it will prevent the sport from growing, because, it will cost too much to run anywhere but the back. The junior classes are about the kids, not the grumps (grown ups), I don't need the stress of some crazy bike war where there literally is no gate, or check to keep things in check.
At the most we will be on the scene if we choose to particpate (still haven't decided if it is worth doing this or sticking with MX) for what 3-4 years? Then this whole thing doesn't mean a thing.
If DM says they have a new model, and have imported 5 is it legal? What is DM USA decides to add hydraulic brakes to all the bikes they import, is it legal now? Based on what I have read, the answer is yes. It really is a free for all. This is where OMRRA needs to save its members wallet and put rules around the classes. It doesn't matter what the manufacturers or tuners want. They want to win. It is up to OMRRA and its membership to regulate the bikes.
What about minimum/max frame sizes, sounds like that needs to happen now, otherwise we will have bigger and bigger frames, carbon fiber frames on little 6" wheels. What about putting slicks on my kid's king cobra running 6" wheels. Sounds legal to me.
SAMPLE BALLOT
Production Class
- hydraulic brakes (y or n)
- hydraulic forks (y or n)
- modified bodywork (y or n)
- legal bikes for a season, no mid-season additions (y or n, plus list of approved bikes)
- min frame size of X, with max dimensions of Y (y or n)
GP Class
- hydraulic brakes (y or n)
- hydraulic forks (y or n)
- modified bodywork (y or n)
- legal bikes for a season, no mid-season additions (y or n, plus list of approved bikes)
- min frame size of X, with max dimensions of Y (y or n)
OMRRA knows this stuff, and has been through it before. Before the flood gates open, the board needs to make sure the learnings of the big bikes are carried over to the little ones as well.
Great points, I am glad so see more involement and more kids comming to race. I am one of the very few racers that have big bike track experience, currently race pocket bikes competitively in Super Production/GP open and have my 10 year old son race in Novice. As far as bikes for your son I approached it as follows: I started off riding a bone stock China made half fairing pocket bike, then modified it as I progressed then went to 4.2 Euro bike then to a 10hp and 14hp Euro bikes. With my son I started him off on a bone stock China full fairing bike then he went to my fully modified China pocket bike finally he is now on a 4.2 Euro bike.
This way of progressing has seamed to work well for myself and especially my son.
As far as the bikes from all the manufactures are concerned there are alot of choices. From the conversations I have had with OMRRA I believe that this year Hydraulic brakes are legal in EVERY class. There are so many Euro models to choose from I try and promote to find a bike that feels the best to that rider and has good support. You welcome to try out the bikes we have and see how they feel.
There is also the factor of local versus all the national organizations rules. They need to play hand in hand on the general level with the specifics a result of the limited number of riders in this area.
Oh...forget carbon fiber frames...there is now aircraft grade full titanium frames in production as I type. It cracks me up as I was cringing paying for the titanium rotor bolts on my sport bike. I would need to be fully sponsored to think about having a whole frame.
Hope this helps.
Mitch
Team NWMiniMoto
Wana race??? www.NWMRL.com 8/10 mile track...25 turns per lap....
Last edited by NWminiMoto-M : 06-20-2005 at 04:14 AM.
“If DM says they have a new model, and have imported 5 is it legal? What is DM USA decides to add hydraulic brakes to all the bikes they import, is it legal now?
Yes to both questions. At the moment, hydraulic brakes are not deemed to give a rider a significant advantage. Late braking in pocket bike racing doesn’t seem to really cut down lap times so much. At this time, Giannini is the only manufacturer who sells bikes with them as OEM equipment. DM, ZPF, Polini. BMS, Stamas or Giannini don’t do runs of 5 bikes that I can recall (except for maybe the polini 910 GP3, which nobody wanted to buy).
“Based on what I have read, the answer is yes. It really is a free for all. This is where OMRRA needs to save its members wallet and put rules around the classes. “
This is a misperception I believe. It is not a free for all, since individuals have to buy what the manufacturers are making. Again, prototypes are not allowed. Manufacturers aren’t doing limited runs of such small revisions, then releasing 5 new bikes, then revising, then releasing 5 more. It isn’t cost effective for them.
“It doesn't matter what the manufacturers or tuners want. They want to win. It is up to OMRRA and its membership to regulate the bikes.”
It is up to all racing organizations to organize classes that create the greatest amount of safe competition and fun for the most participants possible. There is a consesus among the various organizations, most of which who discuss regularly the developments at the track, and ways that they can adopt rules that are as consistent as possbile between organizations. OMRRA doesn't seem to always listen to other organization's experience and wisdom.
“What about minimum/max frame sizes, sounds like that needs to happen now, otherwise we will have bigger and bigger frames, carbon fiber frames on little 6" wheels. What about putting slicks on my kid's king cobra running 6" wheels. Sounds legal to me.”
Not true. Bigger frames aren’t really beneficial. No manufacturer or manufacturers are creeping towards larger frames for handling benefits. Furthermore, a lighter frame on a pocketbike doesn’t always produce a handling benefit, when in fact, it can make the bike feel squirrelly, twitchy or unstable. Although research is being done on a titanium frame model that is estimated to be released next year, I am not sure that they will be better than a standard frame. And with regard to your kid’s king cobra, OMRRA doesn’t allow wheel modifications, and the tire sizes listed in the OMRRA rules need to be the stock size for the bike. Section %K of the OMRRA rules states:
“● Tires must be: Front “90/50” 6.5 Tubeless Radial racing slicks, Rear “110/50“6.5 Tubeless Radial racing slicks, Side “90/50” 6.5 Tubeless Radial racing slicks.
● Dimensions must be: Total height of 22 inches. Seat height of 15 inches. Inside sidecar dimensions of 25 inches long, 14 inches wide. Wheelbase from front to rear of 29 inches.”
Answers:
SAMPLE BALLOT
Production Class
- hydraulic brakes (y if that is the way they come from the factory)
- hydraulic forks (never)
- modified bodywork (not allowed)
- legal bikes for a season, no mid-season additions (y if a real manufacturer)
- min frame size of X, with max dimensions of Y (specified in section 5K )
GP Class
- hydraulic brakes (y)
- hydraulic forks (never)
- modified bodywork (Junior GP, no)
- legal bikes for a season, no mid-season additions (y if a real manufacturer)
- min frame size of X, with max dimensions of Y (specified in section 5K)
The issues you bring up here are valid, and the importance of coming up with good answer to them is very well understood by all of us at OMRRA. It's why this topic was being discussed even before you were kind enough to point it out, and why it will be discussed among all the OMRRA PB racers until we come to a answer on how we are going to deal with it.
If you are thinking about getting your child into PB racing, the best way for you to decide if it is for you is to come over to PIR this weekend, see the program in action, and talk to the parents. I have no doubt we have one of the best youth programs in the country. We take the rules, and enforcement of said rules, very serious. But sitting in front of a computer and playing "Smokey Yunick" with a rule book (if you don't know what that means feel free to ask) is not an attitude that is conducive to the attitude of racing we wish to nurture, especially in a youth racing program. We believe in rules. We have, and will continue to, create rules based on the the machinery and best information available at the time we write those rules. But in this very rapidly changing world of PB racing we must also believe in that intangible element of "spirit" of the rules, especially during mid-season.
To clear up any confusion on the BMS side of this thread, it was stated that one of the frames is stamped with a 15. This number signifies the frame number for that year of manufacturing. (These bike are shipped randomly) The number is restarted each year. BMS goes through the same protocal as the other Italian Manufactures. This process is a very strict protocal and is known throughout the world. This prevents someone from making changes and producing something that would be out of line and given an advantage.
In short I hope that the number 15 is not insinuating that BMS is not considered a manufactor? Because this does not represent the number of total bikes produced, but simply a number to allow the tracking in a given year.
To clear up any confusion on the BMS side of this thread, it was stated that one of the frames is stamped with a 15. This number signifies the frame number for that year of manufacturing. (These bike are shipped randomly) The number is restarted each year. BMS goes through the same protocal as the other Italian Manufactures. This process is a very strict protocal and is known throughout the world. This prevents someone from making changes and producing something that would be out of line and given an advantage.
In short I hope that the number 15 is not insinuating that BMS is not considered a manufactor? Because this does not represent the number of total bikes produced, but simply a number to allow the tracking in a given year.
Please feel free to PM.
Ben
of course the number 15 on a frame was not intended to be relevant to BMS' status as a manufacturer. The originator of this thread posed a question regarding the number of bikes in production that takes a product from prototype to production spec, and some have mentioned the number of 50 (as it is seen in the OMRRA rulebook for big bikes, not pocketbikes). There was no intended contestation of BMS's status as a manufacturer. I do not believe that any cogent logical argument would support such a claim.
