Well, reading though the two sets, the questions I have are in the race structure.
1- How did we go full circle with the junior classes? We went completely away from limits, back to limits such that we will need to have multilpe bikes to compete in multiple classes if you want to stay up with hp.
Can we find a middle road??????????????? I would like to see us go with an idea that allows a parent to buy one bike and be able to run in both production and open classes and still be able to be in the hp rating for the open class. With the Cag market as it is going a couple hundred will get you a Cag. Cags are not a problem. Its the imports I am talking about.
Example;
One buys a water-cooled dual reed 7hp. Restricts 14mm and runs with 4.2 unstricted singal reeded bikes. Unrestrict the bike and run it open class. Put the upgaded parts when the child comes of age and run in the adult production classes. This is accomplished with one bike purchase.
2- Why are we limiting the kids to air cooled?
3- I missed where the restrictors come into effect. Do only the begginer use them?
On a brighter note for the future.................
4-stroke
72cc and 88cc are what will be out there first. March is when we will see the first ones in the US.
BMS is competing on a 72cc in Italy as we speak. The demo's were delayed as of now but we should have one Feb.
72cc is competing in the 4.2 class in Italy. The 88cc will come in two stages (1 & 2). What this means is the two will be different only because one has a few larger parts. The two are open class bikes as of yet. 13 to 16 hp.
Cost is still in the air due to not having the completed report of manufacturing cost of these machines. BMS tells me this will be rectified very shortly and I will be able to let all know what to expect on money.
Ben, I notice you mention the "two sets" of rules that are posted here. There's really only one set of rules being discussed in this thread, the rules Dave said he had been working on. You notice his first post with them was nothing more than the old rules with some slight meaninless changes. It appears he either forgot or didn't want to remember that the rules many of use had been working on were out there and available online for anyone to download. Trying to play well with others, I took the rules we had been working on, changed the class structure to the Dave version and posted it. It did not mean I agreed with the classes he proposed. He then took what he considered worthwhile, second guessing what the board would like to see (interesting that one of the things he didn't include because he was 100% sure the board would never approve it, was in fact proposed BY a board member. I'm not saying it would have remained past the boards review but since it was proposed by a board member it seems right it should have remained for THEM to discuss)
I want to re-state that I DO NOT believe we are doing a good thing by creating our own class structure. Although, looking at Daves version I should be loving it because the way it's written now I would be able to run my unrestricted Elite 11 against a Blata 2.5 (hey at least it can have the "stage 1 kit"!). Now I know that all of this could be fixed in the Dave version, but many of us have already worked for the last few months doing that once already. I feel very stongly that the time has come to bite a bullet for the betterment of the sport in the big picture, and get away from this idea of setting up class structures that are taylored for the local scene and the local bikes. If this sport is gonna be a national sport, we have to have national class standards. And although you would never know it by seeing the classes as Dave is proposing, even he himself has said he thinks USMGP rules is the way to go. His track record regarding the national clubs leaves me feeling this is somewhat hypocritical of him but no matter. I feel USMGP rules are not QUITE there yet, but AZPRA is leading the way and Stockton is apperently going to be using very similiar. I feel the best thing we could to for regional racing is to adopt the SAME classes as the other western clubs. It won't be painless and I know many people will have complaints, but if in fact this sport is to be a national one, its got to happen sooner or later, and we are in a position to help lead. I feel the AZPRA class structure (with addition of 4-stroke) would allow AZPRA, SMRRC, and OMRRA to all be on the same page, and would be the first and best move toward creation of that national standard.
Anyhow, this rules stuff is outta control. Let me know when its time to race....
I have to agree with Mark and Ben. Why did we put all the time and effort into what we had so far, only to chuck it all at the last moment and then yell "hey we better hurry up and start from scratch" ?
Dave, if your goal is an attempt at getting us on the same page with the other clubs, then I think you are way off base.
An honest approach at changing the class structures to suit the development of our riders has now gone completely out the window. Yeah it's great that a rider can run three different bikes, but it would be better if he could run the same bike in different classes (cheaper too).
I'm not saying what we had to date is perfect, but it's a lot closer to what we could agree on than what's been recently proposed by Dave. If that's not agreeable- then I strongly suggest you look at the AZPRA rules as a model. No offense Dave, but the last set of rules we got from you led us here and here we still are. Look on the bright side, if it's screwed up it won't be your fault, and you can say I told you so all season!
The part of this that bothers me the most, is the wait till the last minute scare tactics that I see happening. We asked everyone for input for months and got very little in response. That includes 0 response from you Dave. Now all of a sudden it's hurry up and vote for these rules or we're doomed. What we did get was put into the format, as a colaborative effort, now it's gone. Total waste of my time and that of others. Oh well, speaking for myself, that won't happen again. Good Luck.
Mark, it's comments like yours that keep this process from moving forward. I'm not changing anyone's ideas, only cleaning up the wording. I know a board member proposed the protest idea, I also talked to a few board members about it wasn't sitting well them. Tony's idea can go before the board for a vote, but so will my version. What one do you think they will go for? I am only trying to make this process easier.
Hunter, the reason there was nothing written about the 4 strokes was because I have no info on them. I already put up a post requesting info for them so they can be included. There is no last minute tactics here. I only offered that if things can come together before Wednesday, there can be a set of rules that everyone can start to plan by. If not, we do have another month to work on it. The rules that were worked on up to this point didn't look anything like AZPRA, USMGP, SMRRA or anyone else's rules. This idea is much closer to the other clubs and is inline with general motorcycle racing.
Ben, the kids should be limited to air cooled bikes because the bikes can only put out so much hp. I don't think that any kid under 10 years old should be allowed on anything higher than 7.5 to 8 hp bikes. This means air cooled. This is a big step up from last year. And yes you can buy one bike and run it in all three class if the kid is over 10. Take your 4.2 with restrictor and run it in the production class, then remove the restrictor and change the reed cage to a dual reed and run it in the GP class. If the kid is over 10 then run that same setup in the GP Open class. Now this setup my not have as much hp as a water cooled bike, but you can still run the class. There is no way to make one bike top in all three classes, but you can run all three. It's no different from me running my 10hp in the 40 Open class. This concept was the same thing you did in Las Vegas this last year.
I just reread AZPRA's rules again. The classes I am proposing are basically the same. We just would not have as many classes. The classes that never happened in the past years where blended into other classes (i.e. 50 open and 40 open are together now because there were no 50's in the past. But they still have a place to race if they show up. The 4.2 Senior only happened 3 times last year, so combine it with the 6.2 air cooled which weren't competitive with the 10hp bikes and now that class may happen). The kids would have more classes to run, which is what Ben always wanted. The seniors would have a more diverse program with better grids.
Dave
Last edited by NW Pocketbike : 01-17-2005 at 05:12 PM.
Reason: typo
Dave, you feel I am part of the problem that we dont have rules yet?!?!
No Problem, I'm gone, good-bye OMRRA.
Unlike some people who you are still able to fool, many of us learned within the first year of racing in Dave's World that the emperor has no clothes. I'm not a subtle, reserved person, and I know I come across loud and harsh, unfortunalty it is almost impossible to totally remove the Marine from a Marine. But I believe that most all of my concerns and issues with the way you did things and the problems we have ran into because if it have proved to be valid. But no matter, dealing with you has become something that is just not worth the frustration.
You win, I quit. You can have your empire back without me getting in your way.
Best of luck to the OMRRA racers. I am really gonna miss being around all the great kids.
Mark, it's comments like yours that keep this process from moving forward.
I didn't say that you were a problem, only the negative comments and finger pointing are a problem. You have had a lot of valid points. Your positive comments are always welcome and encouraged. The best thing to due is learn from the past and look to the future. Nobody wins if we live in the past. Once again, I am only trying to help with things for the future.
Holy poop batman! Man oh man, I can't believe that this is getting this bad. Mark, Dave, Hunter, and everyone else...
There is nothing that we can do about the past, lets just figure a way in which we can get our season going. I have said it from the beginning of my post, lets use the AZPRA/SMRRA rules structure and go from there. You are all right, we are now at the 11th hour and if something doesn't get done, then the OMRRA pocket bike program will not exist. I for one, would like to be able to have a local (somewhat) club that my son can race in, however if it goes down the crapper, it makes no difference to me as Mario will be doing quite a bit of racing with the MetraKit and he will be racing pocket bikes with other clubs.
However, there are quite a few other families will be affected should the OMRRA pocket bike program no longer continue. Please, Please, lets figure something out, even if it means using another club's rules.
what ever gets decided, we will all have to deal with and accept if we want to race with OMRRA. But something has to be done and all of this bickering needs to stop. Remember, everyone has access to this forum. Perception can be a killer. Our club is full of good people, lets give people the right impression and lets come up with something that can give life to our currently dying club.
Once again, a huge THANKS to all of you that have and continue to support pocket bike racing in the Pacific Northwest. A huge THANKS to everyone that has has some part in this club, officially or not, it is greatly appreciated.
Mark, I would hate to see you go man, as would my son and many of the kids that look up to you. Lets figure something out folks. There is nothing that we can do about the past, but we can do something about the future of pocket bikes in Oregon/Washington.
In my opinion, this is childish. All this bickering when all anyone is trying to do is have a structured racing environment. Mark, I think you DO care about this sport, therefore saying your quitting is just childish. To just up and quit and not stay and help things get better just shows your frustration, which is projected poorly. I think you have worked hard at this, which is great and much appreciated. The kids do like you and love to see you at the track. I think everyone has input on how things should go and from what I saw posted is mighty close to AZPRA and SMRRC. I honestly find it embarrassing how much bickering goes on in the OMRRA posts of PBP. If this all came down to the kids, they would just go out there and race the track. Adults are the ones who put all the drama into it. Isnt this supposed to be FUN?
I agree also, so back to the business at hand. Where are we at with the rules? Any suggestions for the rules? How are we doing with what was posted earlier? Is there anything else that should be included or changed? I am open to anything.
Also, there should be more news on the schedule tomorrow.
Here's what I suggest. Create a poll on this forum, add some of the suggestions that have come up, lets say make the deadline set for next Friday and we go from there. Should be pretty simple.
Or you could just make an executive decition and just adopt the majority's rule and adopt the AZPRA Rules and call it good for this year...
Here's what I suggest. Create a poll on this forum, add some of the suggestions that have come up, lets say make the deadline set for next Friday and we go from there. Should be pretty simple.
Or you could just make an executive decition and just adopt the majority's rule and adopt the AZPRA Rules and call it good for this year...
Seems we have a pretty good set going with the technical side but with regard to the race classes, we need to add or allow the Blata 2.5 to run with the Cag class, set up an open Cag class for the adults. The childrens class structure with regard to age (AZPRA) does not fit with our current program. The children are required to be at least 7 to race with AZPRA and then range up to 15. IMO the kids class structure seems to be appropriate and allows the kids to maximize their potential with regard to the dual reeds and pipes. I can understand the desire if you have a child on the threshold of moving up to the adult classes to be able to buy a water cooled bike, but not sure how to write that into the rules and keep it safe for the younger kids without doing what was done last year and separate the kids by age and that didn't seem to work either.
The rules Mark and Hunter put together along with the input from varies e-mails and meeting is what I thought we were working with. We can see what the other clubs are running but you have to remember they dont race along side the big bikes and why should we follow if we can make it right for our group. We travel to these other clubs to race and have a great time. The one thing I did see when we raced in Florida was they make their own rules to accomidate them and have fun. My input was simple what a saw in the other states and saw that it worked the few rules that affected us. This does not mean we simple adopt the entire set of rules. I feel we take the best of the best and make our own. Until we have unity with the entire pocketbike community then we simply right rules to make our home turf work for our people.
Mark; I meant the two sets of rules meaning the last minute rules on this post and the time grinding rules you and Hunter put together. Yes I will agree all of this e-mailing and meeting time and now less than a week to game time we have an entire of save me now rules. Its crap and reading through this post I think most are in agreement.
Dave; I disagree with your hp issues but we dont have to see eye to eye as we never will. I look at it this way as both a team manager and a parent. We need to figure out how we can max the fun and limit the money and still stay within hp shot of each other and other clubs so that when we travel we dont have to have multiple bikes. I understand that one can buy a 4.2 and compete in all the classes but that is like the rules making Mark run his Blata against the 10hp bikes. Its not going to win and if it does it would be a cold day in @@###$.
Kim has a few concerns which can not be addressed with just adopting a set of rules no body agrees on and we dont agree with this set either.
I suggest, if Mark is willing to post up what looks like three sets of purposed rules.
1- Mark and Hunter's version with alot of other people's input.
2- Mark and Hunter's version with even more changes, such as the single reed dual reed with restriction inputs and hp caps.
3- Daves last minute version on this post.
and put it to vote like Mario suggest we should be able to get this put together. As I told Mark, we will be able to run whatever as SP but if we have a chance to put in our request then why not. So whatever is voted on then we simply run the rules and move on. But I can say reading these on this post I dont agree with and Mark's I think are more open for exsisting riders and new members. The growth of the kids is going to happen we just need to fight for what is right and help them along making it safe and fun for them. This is racing and its everywhere and with every sport. You have soccer parents, go-cart parents, cheer leader parent. If you dont think they bicker then you have something else coming.
I suggest the conversations about all of this stays with the parents and staff and let the kids do what they want to do and that is race. If there are people out there that say they dont want to win they are pulling your leg. Racer are aggressive and that why the horns get locked.
Everything leads us to believe that there exists a certain point of the intelligence at which life and death, the real and the imaginary, the past and the future... cease to be perceived as opposites. (Andre' Breton)
So lets get some opinions and see what we need to do.
My thoughts are NOT last minute. I have been saying the same thing for several months now. It looks like Frank needs to take over and hold rules meeting to get things ready for the board to vote on next month. I will make sure everyone will be notified as to when the meetings are so you have a chance to be involved. See everyone there!
The more I re-read the rules, the more questions I seem to come up with. In all reality, I may have read them too much as I may be reading too much into them. Ben, glad to see your post in regards to the current happenings and I agree with you. Lets figure something out and let the kids do what they are all itching to do, RACE. Yes, many of the parents don't see eye to eye, but again this is not about us but our kids. I think that we are all intelligent enought to come up with something that will benefit our kids.
I don't particularly agree with the class structure that is currently being proposed. I think that the age of the kids should not have as much importance as to the times that they can post. Specifically, I'm talking about the 10-12yr old class. I think that the parents should be able to allow their kids to race this class as long as they can put in times within 115% of the fastest time posted for that weekend or faster. Maybe leave the age restrictions but also add the time % as a form of incentive. Other clubs across the country make these types of exceptions, therefore I think that if we build it in to the rules, it may be followed by other clubs. We have some of the fastest kids in the Nation racing in our club, lets let them do just that.
Anyway, just some thoughts I would share with you all.
My thoughts are NOT last minute. I have been saying the same thing for several months now. It looks like Frank needs to take over and hold rules meeting to get things ready for the board to vote on next month. I will make sure everyone will be notified as to when the meetings are so you have a chance to be involved. See everyone there!
Dave
Dave - that's exactly what you did: SAYING and THINKING; the keyword here is "saying" and "thoughts". We had two rules meetings for pocketbikes and everybody was asked for input. All you said at this events is: "I have something in my head" (like we could read your mind - maybe we can????). Now, over 2 month later you finally put something in writing, but not once you gave some input on the previous post regarding rules. Now after 2 month of silence, you just did your own thing, apparently you don't play well with others....
Oh, and don't forget to use super cool class names - so you can show your troghies off
Silke - keep the rubber side down!
I know I shouldn't get involved, since I won't be back next season. I hope you all figure it out.
Food for thought: down and out, hydraulic breaks open class (maybe not - we don't want to evolve)
Seriously folks, lets stop with the fingerpointing. It really isn't getting us anywhere. Whats done is done, now lets get down to business and figure these rules out so that we can present something to OMRRA shall we? If that doesn't work, then allow the kids to come up with the rules, I can guarantee that they will not fight and bicker.
I for one, have this week available to assist with the rules. My schedule isn't as insane as the last couple of weeks, still busy, but nothing compared to the last few months. How can I help?
I think your imput is very important. Before you sign off for your new sunset can you e-mail either Tony or I the two versions of the rules you have (Unless Mark is still reading and jumps back on board). Looks like Wednesday we can show the board what is out there and see if we can get to a vote.
I suggest we fine tune the second set put out with a supplmental side page with the extra ideas from people that want to prove their ideas are valid enough to change what is already on paper. This would be done by seeing if others agree and if so then write them in. If not, keep them the same as they read.
