I didn't intend to dis' any one on these pages , I mean't the (O)'s on eBay.
Yeah it was fast, from Winnipeg to Vancouver, to Kelowna in 4 days. When I was breaking the motor in, I'd fire it up, run at very low rpm's between idle and the clutch grabing' up down up down, then a little bit of rev's on the clutch, then up down up down, until I felt the rad. to get hot not real hot just hot, then hit the kill switch. I did this 5 times on sat.
Sun. morn' I repeated those steps again 3 times, with a little more rev's the last two times. Later I took it to the track and ran it fast, not totaly wide open, just on it yaknow, then on the 3rd set of laps I wrung it out, it's still in one piece and ready to rip. oh yeah the gas was high grade super from Shell with syn. BellRay 2stroke racing oil at 23-25:1, lots of smoke and there should be on break in.DIDNOTNUKE! Cool.
Yeah we got pics but the knowledgestick hasn't sent me them yet, but when he does I'll show them. I see your way down and over from us here in Kelowna , do you know any thing about our valley here, I saw on your public profile your in Miami, way cool, I guess you ride all winter eh. We're not so lucky way the heck up here, yeah we have to put away our bikes and pull out the snowmobiles, skis, skates and snowboards, pretty sad eh. hahahahahaha!!!
not to beat a dead horse but, it's best to use non synthetic for break-in...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pegdrag
oh yeah the gas was high grade super from Shell with syn. BellRay 2stroke racing oil at 23-25:1, lots of smoke and there should be on break in.DIDNOTNUKE! Cool.
Why beat the horse, it seems to have worked for my Star-x C5, still runs like crazy, maybe got lucky and got a good one. There are those possibilities eh. Have you ever heard of Microlon, it helps, it works like ancient chinese secret.
Obviously your motor is not going to explode because it but, for the sake of others I'll say again.
"It's best to break-in a new motor on non-synthetic 2stroke oil...
After Break-in Synthetic if perfectly fine!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pegdrag
Why beat the horse, it seems to have worked for my Star-x C5, still runs like crazy, maybe got lucky and got a good one. There are those possibilities eh. Have you ever heard of Microlon, it helps, it works like ancient chinese secret.
Well, has any of you guys heard about Microlon, I've been using it for near 30yrs and works like magic. It's kind of an underground cult following, nobody talks about it because they use it or don't know about it. I like to call it my miracle juice, cuz it is. Aircraft have been using it for over half a century. Find out about the juice and you will become a user.
G'day, It's a 19 mm HP carb with a flat slide and hole post no needle. Same as the one I got from a supplier in California for my 53cc big bore nitrous cag commonly known as lil'ninja. Sprocks 8-68.
it's a common 2-stroke race motor technique used by most race teams, and is even more common in little pocket bikes, it has to do with the metal and what happens to it the first few times it is run (i'd say baked), if i remember correctly it is a good practice on allot of four strokers too...
I cant remember the exact chemistry right now, it was brought to my attention on here a couple years ago by a VERY well known pocket bike tuner...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pegdrag
Hey nickj, I'm not sure where you get the idea about not using syn. oil to break in a motor. Vague. Fill me in willya.
Anything is old school when you use microlon, the magical juice. And one of the best oils is Castrol syn., it always leaves a thin white film on the head and piston, never a carbon build up ever. However when microlon is applied first you could mix the gas with spit and it'll still work like a charm. And we'll get along fine if we can forever agree to disagree. I learned off one of the best 2-stroke dudes in Canadian roadracing history, Terry Wolff. And if my 50cc w/c C5 blows up real good, I'll owe you an apology nick.
it's a common 2-stroke race motor technique used by most race teams, and is even more common in little pocket bikes, it has to do with the metal and what happens to it the first few times it is run (i'd say baked), if i remember correctly it is a good practice on allot of four strokers too...
I cant remember the exact chemistry right now, it was brought to my attention on here a couple years ago by a VERY well known pocket bike tuner...
We have tired this both ways syn and non syn on breakin . and we have determined that there is no difference in power loss or hp after breakin. so do rings really seat on a single ring 2 stroke like everyone thinks?? good Q. its not like on a 4 t where your getting your multiple rings and valve seated . JMO the only difference we truely noticed is less carbon buildup with the syn breakin after we tore the motor down after breakin to check things out
here is some reading for everyone, remember, break-in your motor however you want, but this is why i break-in with non synth....
I will ask one question, do any of you think the quality control on these china bikes are anywhere near that of Mercedes-benz corvette or vipers?? I DONT..
Using synthetic-oil in engine break-ins
By Road & Track, Technical Correspondence Column, July 2000 issue
Many readers have questioned us on engine break-in procedures when using synthetic oil. Conventional wisdom has it that a new or freshly rebuilt engine should be broken in using mineral oil, then, once enough mileage has accumulated to ensure rings and cylinder walls have lapped themselves into harmony, synthetic oil can be used.
Readers have correctly pointed out that several major brands come from the factory with synthetic oil, among these being Corvette, Mercedes-Benz and Viper. How can these engines break-in if run on synthetic oil from day one, they ask?
To find out, we spoke with Mobil and Redline Oil companies for their take on the synthetic break-in question. Mobil's response was that engines break-in just fine on synthetics, and that any wear point in the engine significant enough to be an interference, and thus susceptible to rapid wear, would be a wear point no matter what lubricant is used.
Redline, on the other hand, has found it best to recommend a mineral oil break-in. Occasionally an engine will glaze its cylinder walls when initially run on Redline, they say, so by using a mineral oil for 2000 miles, verifying there is no oil consumption and then switching to the synthetic, glazing is eliminated.
Cylinder-wall glazing is not a deposit left on the cylinder wall, but rather a displacement of cylinder-wall metal. This happens when the high spots of the cylinder wall crosshatch are not cut or worn off by the piston rings, but rather rolled over into the valleys or grooves of the crosshatch. This leaves a surface that oil adheres to poorly, against which the rings cannot seal well. Compression is lost and oil consumed, and the only cure is to tear down the engine to physically restore the cylinder-wall finish by honing.
Why is glazing not a problem for the major manufacturer? Because they have complete, accurate control over their cylinder-wall finish and ring type. Redline deals with a huge variety of engines and manufacturers, both OEM and from the aftermarket. Cylinder-wall finish and ring type thus vary greatly, and glazing can therefore occur, albeit rarely.
While we were at it, we queried about synthetic oil-change intervals. Mobil says to use the maximum change interval specified by the engine manufacturer, regardless of oil type. Redline said that once past an OEM warranty, anywhere from 10,000 to 18,000 miles, or one year, whichever comes first, is appropriate depending on conditions (dust, short trips). They also recommend changing just the oil filter at 6000 to 7000 miles as a precaution against overloading the filter. Redline further noted a caution when using synthetics with leaded fuels, as synthetics do not hold lead in suspension as well as mineral oil. Aviation is one area where leaded fuel is still widespread, and avgas is often used by off-road and racing enthusiasts, so a relatively short oil change interval may thus be indicated.
more reading?? you got it....
A break-in period is required when an engine is new or whenever the cylinder walls have been re-conditioned to accept new piston rings. An engine break-in "seats" the piston rings against the cylinder walls to minimize both oil consumption and blow-by of combustion gases. The cylinder walls are honed with abrasive stones to produce a "cross-hatch" surface that consists of microscopic peaks and valleys (see figure 1). During a proper break-in, the sharp peaks are flattened by interaction with the rings while the valleys are left intact. The flattened peaks provide a bearing surface for the piston rings to seal against cylinder walls, while the valleys provide an oil reservoir for lubrication.
If the break-in is not performed correctly, the peaks can remain sharp allowing excessive oil retention in the valleys or the peaks may "roll over" into the valleys (glazing) preventing necessary oil retention. Blow-by occurs when the hot combustion gases and combustion by-products go past the rings and into the crankcase section of the engine. When blow-by is minimized, the engine runs cooler, cleaner, and more efficiently. When blow-by is excessive (when the rings are not seated properly or when the rings are worn), engine oil becomes contaminated with combustion gases and by-products and the pressurized crankcase causes oil vapor to be expelled through the crankcase ventilation system into the atmosphere or air intake system. Oil consumption will be increased also if the peaks are not flattened during break-in. The excess oil filling the "valleys" in the cylinder wall is burned every combustion stroke.
So what is the proper break-in procedure for rings and how long does it take? First, there may be other concerns that should be considered when first firing-up a new engine, such as lubrication to the bearings, timing, and valve adjustments. Otherwise, the generally accepted procedure is as follows. Fill the engine with the appropriate amount of 10W30-weight, petroleum-based oil. Start the engine and let it run for about 20 minutes at low (about 2000) RPM. Drain the oil while it's hot and inspect the oil for metal particles. There should be no chunks of aluminum, brass, iron, or steel. Refill with oil (see below for type) and drive the car (after any other considerations have been addressed) for 500 miles and drain the oil again. During those first 500 miles, the loading on the rings should be moderate and varying. This is accomplished by varying speeds (no long-distance constant speeds, especially full-throttle) and occasionally increasing the cylinder pressures by quick acceleration or full-throttle uphill climbs. Stay away from redline though. If very-hard rings are used with hard cylinder liners (which are not used in the Mitsubishi 6G72 cast-iron block), the full break-in period may take longer than 500 miles.
What type of oil should be used for break-in? I, along with most people, use a 10W30- or 10W40-weight petroleum-based oil. However, there has been some discussion concerning the use of synthetic oil for break-in. To address this I have included the articles below from recent Road & Track issues. After the break-in period I started using fully-synthetic Mobil 1 10W30 in my rebuilt Dodge Stealth twin-turbo engine.
Holy cow, don't drink it man we need you, cause you provide fantstic info, whew what a read, hats off to you and your knowledge eh. Thanx. Yaknow, on my pick-up, a 91 Ford Ranger 2wd 4L. V6 I had maybe 50,000 K on it when I switched from Castrol reg. to Syntec and at around 95,000K I added the TPF metal treatment and to this day(203,000K) it purrs like a small sweet kitten. All this time I forgot about that. So it seems that I do owe you an apology Mr.Nickj, hats off to you. And I'm sure that last post has to definitly be a "record length post"
Well, I'll have to mix a new batch of go-go juice with non-synthetic and burn awhile to give a good seat. But the lil' ninja loves the syn. and N2O, but thats a well worn mojo, an aircooled 53cc big bore. I'll keep ya's updated on the breakin of my C5.
glad to be of service, when I first came here i did not know ANYTHING about two strokes, I've always been able to work on four strokes Which is weird because I dont know how or why but for some reason everything almost always works out..
funny thing is, I'm an A+ N+ MCP MCSE MCDBA microsoft certified computer geek, for me working on engines takes me away from all of that theoretical computer CRAP and gives me something tangible that I can actually put my hands on, not look through thousands of lines of code for the one misplaced word that ruins everything....
Metal coarses through my veins. Tool& die making for 36yrs will do that. I love tinkering on these bikes, alot cheaper to race these than the SBK's I raced in the 80's(GPz 750 and KZ1000 MkII both Kawi's). Hate to brag, but hey, my latest project will hurl the PB's to the foreground. It's a dragster, 49cc with N2O, a gyromatic trany that will produce 260 to 280 ft/ lbs of torque, with a 29/ 13 Mickey Thompson slick on the back, it's a one speed, GO. I'm talking world record. Hopefully be finished next year. I've built everything with my own hands. No pic's, secrets. But racing PB's is a real blast anyway I can get it.
here is some reading for everyone, remember, break-in your motor however you want, but this is why i break-in with non synth....
I will ask one question, do any of you think the quality control on these china bikes are anywhere near that of Mercedes-benz corvette or vipers?? I DONT..
Using synthetic-oil in engine break-ins
By Road & Track, Technical Correspondence Column, July 2000 issue
Many readers have questioned us on engine break-in procedures when using synthetic oil. Conventional wisdom has it that a new or freshly rebuilt engine should be broken in using mineral oil, then, once enough mileage has accumulated to ensure rings and cylinder walls have lapped themselves into harmony, synthetic oil can be used.
Readers have correctly pointed out that several major brands come from the factory with synthetic oil, among these being Corvette, Mercedes-Benz and Viper. How can these engines break-in if run on synthetic oil from day one, they ask?
To find out, we spoke with Mobil and Redline Oil companies for their take on the synthetic break-in question. Mobil's response was that engines break-in just fine on synthetics, and that any wear point in the engine significant enough to be an interference, and thus susceptible to rapid wear, would be a wear point no matter what lubricant is used.
Redline, on the other hand, has found it best to recommend a mineral oil break-in. Occasionally an engine will glaze its cylinder walls when initially run on Redline, they say, so by using a mineral oil for 2000 miles, verifying there is no oil consumption and then switching to the synthetic, glazing is eliminated.
Cylinder-wall glazing is not a deposit left on the cylinder wall, but rather a displacement of cylinder-wall metal. This happens when the high spots of the cylinder wall crosshatch are not cut or worn off by the piston rings, but rather rolled over into the valleys or grooves of the crosshatch. This leaves a surface that oil adheres to poorly, against which the rings cannot seal well. Compression is lost and oil consumed, and the only cure is to tear down the engine to physically restore the cylinder-wall finish by honing.
Why is glazing not a problem for the major manufacturer? Because they have complete, accurate control over their cylinder-wall finish and ring type. Redline deals with a huge variety of engines and manufacturers, both OEM and from the aftermarket. Cylinder-wall finish and ring type thus vary greatly, and glazing can therefore occur, albeit rarely.
While we were at it, we queried about synthetic oil-change intervals. Mobil says to use the maximum change interval specified by the engine manufacturer, regardless of oil type. Redline said that once past an OEM warranty, anywhere from 10,000 to 18,000 miles, or one year, whichever comes first, is appropriate depending on conditions (dust, short trips). They also recommend changing just the oil filter at 6000 to 7000 miles as a precaution against overloading the filter. Redline further noted a caution when using synthetics with leaded fuels, as synthetics do not hold lead in suspension as well as mineral oil. Aviation is one area where leaded fuel is still widespread, and avgas is often used by off-road and racing enthusiasts, so a relatively short oil change interval may thus be indicated.
more reading?? you got it....
A break-in period is required when an engine is new or whenever the cylinder walls have been re-conditioned to accept new piston rings. An engine break-in "seats" the piston rings against the cylinder walls to minimize both oil consumption and blow-by of combustion gases. The cylinder walls are honed with abrasive stones to produce a "cross-hatch" surface that consists of microscopic peaks and valleys (see figure 1). During a proper break-in, the sharp peaks are flattened by interaction with the rings while the valleys are left intact. The flattened peaks provide a bearing surface for the piston rings to seal against cylinder walls, while the valleys provide an oil reservoir for lubrication.
If the break-in is not performed correctly, the peaks can remain sharp allowing excessive oil retention in the valleys or the peaks may "roll over" into the valleys (glazing) preventing necessary oil retention. Blow-by occurs when the hot combustion gases and combustion by-products go past the rings and into the crankcase section of the engine. When blow-by is minimized, the engine runs cooler, cleaner, and more efficiently. When blow-by is excessive (when the rings are not seated properly or when the rings are worn), engine oil becomes contaminated with combustion gases and by-products and the pressurized crankcase causes oil vapor to be expelled through the crankcase ventilation system into the atmosphere or air intake system. Oil consumption will be increased also if the peaks are not flattened during break-in. The excess oil filling the "valleys" in the cylinder wall is burned every combustion stroke.
So what is the proper break-in procedure for rings and how long does it take? First, there may be other concerns that should be considered when first firing-up a new engine, such as lubrication to the bearings, timing, and valve adjustments. Otherwise, the generally accepted procedure is as follows. Fill the engine with the appropriate amount of 10W30-weight, petroleum-based oil. Start the engine and let it run for about 20 minutes at low (about 2000) RPM. Drain the oil while it's hot and inspect the oil for metal particles. There should be no chunks of aluminum, brass, iron, or steel. Refill with oil (see below for type) and drive the car (after any other considerations have been addressed) for 500 miles and drain the oil again. During those first 500 miles, the loading on the rings should be moderate and varying. This is accomplished by varying speeds (no long-distance constant speeds, especially full-throttle) and occasionally increasing the cylinder pressures by quick acceleration or full-throttle uphill climbs. Stay away from redline though. If very-hard rings are used with hard cylinder liners (which are not used in the Mitsubishi 6G72 cast-iron block), the full break-in period may take longer than 500 miles.
What type of oil should be used for break-in? I, along with most people, use a 10W30- or 10W40-weight petroleum-based oil. However, there has been some discussion concerning the use of synthetic oil for break-in. To address this I have included the articles below from recent Road & Track issues. After the break-in period I started using fully-synthetic Mobil 1 10W30 in my rebuilt Dodge Stealth twin-turbo engine.
You do what you want but know where did I read anything about 2 strokes in that article . Like I said we ahve tried it both ways and there is no premature wear on these motors using synthetic during break in . remember most 2 strokes only use one ring other than cags and your going to have a little blowby with only one ring anyway .
Castrol Syntec is the syn. oil of choice by most of North America, these people say it's ok to use right from the start. We should check with the manufacturers what oil is put in at birth and run to test and check. They have the multi-million dollar research centers with highly educated tech. guys doing all kinds of non and destructive testing. Then it'll be done. Anyone care to step up to the plate.
At one time many moons ago I owned a Kawasaki 500cc Mach III, now this bike I took apart down to the little peices and then massaged it,smoothed polished in side and out, matched everything, raised the compression, customized the Denco pipes for more flow, sculpted piston crowns, and more stuff too, but the one thing I did do that made the big difference was heating up the cylinders in the oven and rubbing the hell out of the bores, pistons and rings, with a Teflon based product called MICROLON. it was unbelievable the difference when it was put together. Just with the cyl. installed with the pistons and rings in, when I'd hold the cyl.'s down with one hand and spin the crank with the other, it would whip around with the 3 pistons going up and down with ease, and it would go for a quite a while in relation to a reg. install. Very,very low friction, extremely low I'd say. I was shocked. And when it was together, it was a different motor.
Now, Microlon is totally a100% syn. metal treatment(twice as slippery as ice on ice) before gas and oil hit. You can also put it in with your 2-stroke mix, or spray it down the throat of the carb at high rev's, and it will work wonders right from the get go.
I said before that people who know and use it, don't say anything about it and those who don't can't, so it doesn't get around much.
Now you know! The C5 will be just fine living off synthetics.
well, both use moving pistons inside cylinders with a ring or rings, the crap that happens to the metal in the cylinder and ring is common among two and four strokes, also the reason some new cars come with synth is because the tolerances from those factories are spot on, which is nothing at all like our china rep bikes..
Quote:
Originally Posted by standardracer
You do what you want but know where did I read anything about 2 strokes in that article .
