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post #1 of 279 (permalink) Old 07-10-2018 Thread Starter
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3rd port/Boost port

Hey guys, I'm new on here but have been lurking the form for a long time. I'm about to try my first boost port or 3rd port on a stock 40mm bore head. My question is I keep reading different info on this topic on how tall the boost port should be. I've read its suppose to support the main transfers but to be slightly shorter or even in height with the transfer ports. I under stand the roof angle needs to be between 50-65 degrees according to what I've read.

But now I've also read recently to make it slightly taller than the transfer port which is best for a boost port? A little bit shorter? then same height, or taller?
I'm trying to understand some differences I've read that If the boost port opens first, so taller than the transfer port it just gets sucked out the exhaust is this
corrrect?

Thanks guys
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Re: 3rd port/Boost port

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeePee View Post
Hey guys, I'm new on here but have been lurking the form for a long time. I'm about to try my first boost port or 3rd port on a stock 40mm bore head. My question is I keep reading different info on this topic on how tall the boost port should be. I've read its suppose to support the main transfers but to be slightly shorter or even in height with the transfer ports. I under stand the roof angle needs to be between 50-65 degrees according to what I've read.

But now I've also read recently to make it slightly taller than the transfer port which is best for a boost port? A little bit shorter? then same height, or taller?
I'm trying to understand some differences I've read that If the boost port opens first, so taller than the transfer port it just gets sucked out the exhaust is this
corrrect?

Thanks guys
Welcome to the forum.....

What you want is a boost port that's a lil taller...not much..1/16-1/8" taller will suffice...

Reason being is when the three converge together you don't want the two main transfer ports overpowering the 3rd port stifling it.......

On a boost port roof angle isn't as important seeings you can't make the boost port as deep as a transferport...

I just give it a rounded progressive open n shut shape. ..


Good luck
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Last edited by CAM2; 07-10-2018 at 03:57 PM.
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Re: 3rd port/Boost port

Alright you made a thread, lol. I can post photos here. Here are some photos of 306 stuff. Need my other laptop to show many other Boosted stuff.
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post #4 of 279 (permalink) Old 07-10-2018 Thread Starter
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Re: 3rd port/Boost port

Thanks for the info guys so the roof angle isn't a big deal, makes things a bit easier. I'm been looking at trying to mimic this canted design, is this something good to copy?
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Re: 3rd port/Boost port

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Thanks for the info guys so the roof angle isn't a big deal, makes things a bit easier. I'm been looking at trying to mimic this canted design, is this something good to copy?
Theres so many pros and cons to it Id rather not go over them....

Whats funny is you see the mods but you never see videos of the engine slapped on a bike and shown what it can do......Me included but Im not a gloryhound as theres otheres just as adept as myself and that just starts lots of online controversy but I do have quite a few first start-up videos......

Lets just say that with that much cylinder material removed on a teeny tiny 40mm piston running pump gas you may experience a hard to tune engine aswell as receive some piston knock on the downstroke due to nothing keeping the thermal rate of expansion from becoming extra pronounced from the loss of qll that cylinder material when the piston hits bottom dead center....

If you were running alky/methanol mix the thermal rate of expansion issue would be a different issue as methanol makes almost twice the power and do it running alot cooler aswell as have that need for all that extra fuel......

Youd get better results widening the heck out of the main transferports raising the transferports roofs double the lost base gasket and then blueprinting [matching] the bottomend to the cylinder for a smooth flow and running a single 3/8" wide 3/16" deep transferport with a progressive rate roof...

Cylinders are cheap and if youre feeling experimental try out different techniques and see which ones give good tuneability aswell as power and note how long each mod lasts..........

In the picture below the leftside transferport was widened and the rightside hasnt been yet but the skirt is shaped..........
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post #6 of 279 (permalink) Old 07-10-2018 Thread Starter
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Re: 3rd port/Boost port

Hey cam2, Ya running meth would be nice but for now its pump 94. I run meth on my race car it has many benefits. The tranfers is what I've been interested in learning. Are you essentially just putting the gasket over the cylinder and marking the head and cutting the transfer port to match the gasket?

And by raising the roof of the transfer ports, you are meaning to make the tranfer ports taller correct? Basically taking them from 30mm to 31-32mm. But also keeping the shape the same. Those are just random numbers nothing exact I haven't measured them yet.

I'm coming from the automotive world I really enjoy working on fast cars, but wanted to play with bike here I had kicking around so I'm trying to get into 2 stroke cags just for something different its been pretty fun so far. But just like cars the head is where the power is made, so all help is appreciated.

Last edited by TeePee; 07-11-2018 at 12:25 AM. Reason: missed info
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Re: 3rd port/Boost port

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Originally Posted by TeePee View Post
Hey cam2, Ya running meth would be nice but for now its pump 94. I run meth on my race car it has many benefits. The tranfers is what I've been interested in learning. Are you essentially just putting the gasket over the cylinder and marking the head and cutting the transfer port to match the gasket?

And by raising the roof of the transfer ports, you are meaning to make the tranfer ports taller correct? Basically taking them from 30mm to 31-32mm. But also keeping the shape the same. Those are just random numbers nothing exact I haven't measured them yet.

I'm coming from the automotive world I really enjoy working on fast cars, but wanted to play with bike here I had kicking around so I'm trying to get into 2 stroke cags just for something different its been pretty fun so far. But just like cars the head is where the power is made, so all help is appreciated.
In two stroke there's very lil gasket overlaying.Theres alot of fitting and unfitting aswell as modifying of parts til it all jives as it should....I blueprint and port my junk by eye using a dremel....

In two stroke power is made through port mapping and squishband specs....In 4 stroke there's other variables involved too...

I come from an automotive background too....I've started on two strokes and went to building 3500hp triple nitrous injected 732cuin engines for competition use on NMCA,IHRA and NHRA...I handport everything...no CNC milling machine for me....LOL..

Im sure that you do understand the art of blueprinting coming from an automotive background...

Turbulence reduces velocity and velocity is what makes power on two strokes so you don't want any turbulence..

In the two stroke world when you just rtv the head down with no gasket to increase the squish aswell as boost compression you're essentially dropping the transferport the thickness of the lost gasket....This also drops the boost port aswell as the exhaust port making the transferport opening more constricted at BDC which in turn will shut off fuel slightly earlier as the engine heads towards TDC....

So naturally to compensate you would raise the transferport the regulated thickness and go another thickness to build performance by allowing more fuel to enter the cylinder..

Another thing to touch on is the transferport tops aren't flat...they're angled in a progressive open shut shut open pattern...make sure you keep this angle as its very important in making power. ...

In a perfect world you would use a small engine degree wheel but with the way the Chinese cast their own brand of cylinder they also have their own cylinder mapping aswell as compositional makeup and trying to come up with a solid set of numbers is harder to give and work as intended so I stay within my own set of rules which to this date has served me pretty well.

I've found the SANREN and the TM cylinders are a lil better and produce a lil more hp in stock form....These engines and cylinders originally were built and intended for industrial tool use like augers,trash pumps etc so the cylinders are casted retarded for longevity....

You want to blueprint the crankcase to the cylinder like the pic below but don't orient yours the same as that was my 180 degree cylinder flip reverse rotation experimental engine but as you can see on the flow side of the crankcase there's no abruptments or anything that would disturb velocity,only enhance it with a clearly defined flowpath..

Also on 2 stroke you want to remove as lil material possible to achieve the goals as too much internal volume kills the velocities flow power which won't enhance performance...

It's kinda between a juggling and balancing act building performance on 2 strokers...

Good Luck
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Last edited by CAM2; 07-11-2018 at 12:31 PM.
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I have blue printed and ported a few now and they always seem to work out for power benefits even with my novice mistakes I feel the CAG engine is a great platform to learn porting on it's a very inexpensive and a simple engine also being very forgiving if you make a mistake it will still run good there are some other mods that you should do to go with your ported engine like lightning the wrist pin flywheel and clutch arms even reworking the Piston skirt and lightly modifying the reed cage on a small 50cc engine every little bit helps

As for the other websites hating on us talking mad crap saying that our modifications decrease performance and saying that were actually going to waste time and Photoshop pictures of CAG engine modifications before you go on your forem and waste time with your trash talk why don't you go get a CAG engine for yourself and modify it. But yes I understand if you do that you will become addicted to pocket bikes just like us...


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post #9 of 279 (permalink) Old 07-11-2018 Thread Starter
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Re: 3rd port/Boost port

I already am addicted a bit, I've just trying to get the bike faster and faster. Cam2 I'm a turbo at heart guy, but love the sound of big mountain motors I just don't like how often they burn pistons up hahaha. If you have any detailed transfer pictures on how to specifically touch them up I'd love to see them. I have 2 spare heads to play with right now.

And ya I figured i'd have to degree the motor I was just trying to cut corners lol
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Re: 3rd port/Boost port

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I already am addicted a bit, I've just trying to get the bike faster and faster. Cam2 I'm a turbo at heart guy, but love the sound of big mountain motors I just don't like how often they burn pistons up hahaha. If you have any detailed transfer pictures on how to specifically touch them up I'd love to see them. I have 2 spare heads to play with right now.

And ya I figured i'd have to degree the motor I was just trying to cut corners lol



With chinese ya gotta cut corners...if you wasted time downloading the wheel..setting it up then looking for definitive performance numbers you'll be in the land of the crickets trying to figure where to go from there.....lol

I'm into turbo power too...My Nova has a junkyard 5.3LS now tuned on E-85 with 98mm turbo and a 250 shot of nitrous with methanol injection to get the turbo to initially spool hard off the foot brake and running a 400 Rossler setup for 2 speed only with an adjustable torque converter from Joe at ProTorque....Car blazes the quarter in 8.56 secs at 182mph on stock frontend and leafsprings in the rear and its street driven ....LOL

The trans w/converter costs more than building the car with the rear and the engine combined........LOL

As far as detailed pics...I'll be searching forever I have close to 20,000 pictures to go through not to mention I suck at taking pictures so it maybe a longshot.....LOL

The ones below are as detailed as youre gonna get...LOL..Sorry..

Basically disassemble the whole engine and compare what you have against what I posted and you'll get the idea what you need to do....

Ideally your engines gonna have sharp edges abruptments and sharp ledges tht need to be softened...........

Kinda like softening the chambers of nitrous built cylinder heads....
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Re: 3rd port/Boost port

Thanks cam 2, My street car is a fully built 03 cobra, 76mm precision turbo, on 94 plus water/meth. It's a 6 speed with a the stock irs so its a highway car for now. On pump gas and 18-19 psi it makes 800rwhp, it's not to shabby for a true daily driven street car. I haven't turned it up any higher yet, e85 and 26-28 poounds should push me north of 1000whp

That 98mm turbo needs that spray to spool or else it would take forever without it I bet its a pretty lazy early and then hits like a truck, even my 76mm take till about 4000rpms to be fully spooled... 8.50's is cruising for a street car. I enjoy pretty much all things fast.

Here's my cag, I ported the exhaust, raised the roof a little, and touch the corners a bit and then matched the opening to the pro jet pipe.
mods are: triple reed, dell 14/14 rep carb right now it has a 75 jet which is to rich. pro jet exhaust. Stock squish was good at .5mm.
Power band is 6200-9000rpm, max rpm is 9500-9700. 44km/h I'm a 210 pound muscle head

I'll take a look at those pics you posted
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Re: 3rd port/Boost port

Cam 2I also just checked out your blue printing thread you made looks like in the next couple week I'll be splitting the motor and blending some stuff.
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Re: 3rd port/Boost port

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Cam 2I also just checked out your blue printing thread you made looks like in the next couple week I'll be splitting the motor and blending some stuff.
It definately makes a world of difference making a tool engine more of a minibike engine....

Pretty killer looking cag you have....I like the styling and scheme...

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Re: 3rd port/Boost port

Thanks man, I appreciate it. I took the reverse approach and made it look good first. Now it's time for some speed. Question regarding cranks is it worth going to a fcc to gain some rpm's or is there some other mod I can do to the stock crank to get more rpms? I was on some threads and they were saying you have a turbo crank mod?

every little bit helps. I think I'm just going to dive in on a full clean up of the motor. Tips and tricks on the crank vs fcc?

Thanks man
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Re: 3rd port/Boost port

the full circle crank is bad for a number of reasons the main reason is it starves the crank bearings for lubricant heating them up and causing them to prematurely fail...

it throws the balance of your engine off because the flywheel is balanced for the stock crank...

more rotating mass = slower to spin up and spin down this is no big deal for speed runs but on a short parking lot track you can feel the engine keeping you from slowing down until the clutch unlocks slowing your lap times down because of being forced on the brakes...

yes you can fix it so it will work correctly by cross drilling the crank and drilling the engine casings carving in channels and jb welding in brass tubes to lubricate the bearings CAM2 and a few other old schoolers have said this in other threads i dont think its worth it for 300 to 400 RPMs...

you can just do CAM2s turbo crank mod on a stock or HP crank it gives you a three fold return and its easy it will allso save you 20$

it makes the crank more aerodynamic giving you 3 to 400 RPM boost it all so helps shove the fuel mix up into the ports.

it helps balance the engine less shaking = more power.

it lightens the crank faster rev ups and faster idle downs

here is a picture of the one i did it worked out awesome ill never use a fcc again... good crank bearings are expensive.
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Re: 3rd port/Boost port

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Originally Posted by TeePee View Post
Thanks man, I appreciate it. I took the reverse approach and made it look good first. Now it's time for some speed. Question regarding cranks is it worth going to a fcc to gain some rpm's or is there some other mod I can do to the stock crank to get more rpms? I was on some threads and they were saying you have a turbo crank mod?

every little bit helps. I think I'm just going to dive in on a full clean up of the motor. Tips and tricks on the crank vs fcc?

Thanks man
Mr Kitty has touched on some good pointsmainly because he has experienced what he says first hand...I knew it was gonna be evident but these engines are cheap and easy to work on...

In any event a crank shouldnt even be an issue at this point as you have room for other improvements...

Getting the engine in the zone is whats important.....

First off youre gonna have to modify the intake system aswell as reedplate and reeds.......

Then you can crossdrill the clutch to get a higher rpm lockup which will result in a stronger takeoff...

Lightening the drag on the flywheel aswell as adding a rocket key is paramount

That del rep 14/14 carb is good but a modified WYK192 pumper carb retrofit kit would be a better alternative

Doing the HP wire mod using a HP wire from an automotive set...

Blueprinting the crankcase to the cylinder

The main part that builds power is the squish,,,,a good squishband that builds good power starts at .045" down to .030" being the tightest and produces the most compression...

My evil wasp cag is a 40mm bore 2pc ADA 15:1 alky headkit that I modified with a third port aswell as refined the transfers and the exhaust port a lil....I also put an ADA 4 petal reedblock with HDA series Walbro carb velocity stack and 3" UNI foam airfilter,,9 fin lightened flywheel,,rocket ket set retarded,,lightened clutch with 4000 rpm lockup,,Homemodified HP exhaust

I built it with a modded stock crank and unloaded with chain attached to the rear wheel it belted out a max rpm of a tad over 16,000rpm's...Loaded it was a 13,700rpm scream machine..

I also cut off rhe rear swingarm and grafted on one from a 20" BMX bike after it came out from under me five times and I got sikk of hitting the asphalt and breaking the body....LOL...

My 2011 43cc 40mm Trophy Cag was built quite similar to the 15:1 engine less the 4 petal reedblock and had a dual chamber rev pipe but ran just as hard as the 2pc cag...
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Re: 3rd port/Boost port

Thanks guys, I understand everything you've said, thanks for saving me money. I understand everything except what you want me to do with the intake system and the reed plate and reeds? The carb and intake I have are posted below.

I Appreciate all the help being offered and I'm super excited to try it out. Just let me know what to do with the reed block, intake and reed, right now I have a triple reed.

And Cam, the back of my cag how the rear axle is held and how flimsy it is sketches me out. I like the swing arm mod.
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Re: 3rd port/Boost port

Also thanks for taking the time and posting the pics. Once I start the project I'll start posting what I accomplish that is if it turns out to my standards hahaha
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Re: 3rd port/Boost port

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Thanks guys, I understand everything you've said, thanks for saving me money. I understand everything except what you want me to do with the intake system and the reed plate and reeds? The carb and intake I have are posted below.

I Appreciate all the help being offered and I'm super excited to try it out. Just let me know what to do with the reed block, intake and reed, right now I have a triple reed.

And Cam, the back of my cag how the rear axle is held and how flimsy it is sketches me out. I like the swing arm mod.
On the DelRep the intake is descent its the stock cag intake that needs a lil work...

As far as the reedplate the pic is below....The reeds are tin...youll get better results with composite reeds and you can slightly modify the reedstopper so the reeds open a lil further aswell as for flowing more fuel

Ive done the BMX bike swingarm swap to a few of my Cags...Ive even added stiffeners and even redesigned one frame into a trellis frame Ducati style cag ...
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Re: 3rd port/Boost port

what i do is i sand the reed stops so the reeds can open up just a bit more over stock then i open up the intake side of the reed cage the the stiffness of the reeds themselves depends on the amount of vacuum your engine has in the end but i can give you a hint the carbon fiber ones ( well at least the ones i got ) are too flimsy and made reed flutter the stock ones are a bit too stiff the fiberglass ones are ok but in the end i just went back to the stock ones i have not tried the triple stage reeds i dont like the look of how one side is stiffer then the other the light side might introduce flutter and the stiff side might not open much at all but like i said this is just my untested theory... here are a few pics to help you on your way
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