Billet Case Cag Again - Page 6 - Pocket Bike Forum - Mini Bikes
 2Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #101 of 150 (permalink) Old 2 Weeks Ago Thread Starter
Re: Billet Case Cag Again

If you remember when I put the blue headed hp engine in the Lucky 7 tried many different over pipes, could not make one fit. So I made the side exhaust out of a under/over the back pipe. Even the Pro Jet S would not fit, have many pipes and tubing to add to pipes, which is probably what will happen. Or a different frame.
Yeah, after I sent it, I figured out I forgot the clutch housing, and I have so many here, lol. I can sent another box if needed. What about Polini intake manifold gasket, going to need one between the cases and V-block, I have a set here, which I also forgot. Another problem maybe, the modified rubber intake I sent is for a C1 I believe, the holes are longer than Polini, does it line up with the case threaded holes?? I still have the Polini rubber intake that came with the cases for 19mm Dell PHBG style carb, not for a 19mm HDA223. If the C1 manifold don't work will have to make something that will. We can go over what we need and I send them to you.
DriverD made them tight on purpose, to bad he did not do it right, lol. I found a 19mm Dell clone PHBG carb that put a metal sleeve in the rear to make it 17mm, for the 50cc C1, or A/C 40cc Polini 4.2 engine.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Lucky 7 Side Pipe Exhaust2.jpg (405.2 KB, 3 views)

Empty Pockets Racing: The difficult we do, the impossible takes longer.....
EPR is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
BUILDEM,WRECKEM,REBUILDEM
 
CAM2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 21,201
Re: Billet Case Cag Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPR View Post
If you remember when I put the blue headed hp engine in the Lucky 7 tried many different over pipes, could not make one fit. So I made the side exhaust out of a under/over the back pipe. Even the Pro Jet S would not fit, have many pipes and tubing to add to pipes, which is probably what will happen. Or a different frame.
Yeah, after I sent it, I figured out I forgot the clutch housing, and I have so many here, lol. I can sent another box if needed. What about Polini intake manifold gasket, going to need one between the cases and V-block, I have a set here, which I also forgot. Another problem maybe, the modified rubber intake I sent is for a C1 I believe, the holes are longer than Polini, does it line up with the case threaded holes?? I still have the Polini rubber intake that came with the cases for 19mm Dell PHBG style carb, not for a 19mm HDA223. If the C1 manifold don't work will have to make something that will. We can go over what we need and I send them to you.
DriverD made them tight on purpose, to bad he did not do it right, lol. I found a 19mm Dell clone PHBG carb that put a metal sleeve in the rear to make it 17mm, for the 50cc C1, or A/C 40cc Polini 4.2 engine.
I got the gasket covered and can make the C1 manifold work.

I can fire the engine up with the clutch arms tywrapped…..

The carb is gonna need a remote pulseprt line to pump fuel...The carb has 3 ports 1 inlet that's black plastic and the inlet nipple is broken off, 1 return line and 1 pulseport fitting on the bottom……...

Good thing about that brass fitting under the intake manifold..It will make a quick and easy spot to utilize for the remote pulse...…..

I was looking through my stuff the other day when I modified the pullstarter cover and ran across a brand new red racing coil so I stuck your HP wire on it...….




For a couple days the cylinder base seal and crankcase seal have been curing..

As you can see I use the regular base screws to hold the base in place and to properly seal and hold the base while the Permatex motoseal cures...I also countersunk the tops of the holes so when I install the cap I can do my mod where I use nylon locknuts upside down to let the rounded end to center and hold the cylinder in-place and from alking around at high revs...……….

Heres what it looked like the day I left...……….



Cut
Up
Stuff
To
Obtain
Masterpiece

Last edited by CAM2; 2 Weeks Ago at 11:32 PM.
CAM2 is offline  
post #103 of 150 (permalink) Old 2 Weeks Ago Thread Starter
Re: Billet Case Cag Again

Guess what I found today?? A brand new 8 tooth #25 chain Cag clutch housing, perfect for the billet case.
Also found a new 6 tooth 8mm pinion housing, could go to 8mm chain have 54 tooth rear gear.
That engine will bolt right into the Lucky 7 with the side exhaust. The foot pegs are on the front axle, helps keep the front wheel down, lol. I think the rear gear on the 7 now is 60 tooth & 8 tooth, 7.5 to 1, or a 7 tooth, 8.6 to 1. Or 66 rear and 8 front, 8.25 to 1. So many combinations.
The fuel inlet must have broke during shipping, I swear they were all there, lol. I have a bunch of new Walbro parts, bulbs etc., will look. Can I buy a new black inlet from Dave's??
I have like 5 of them orange coils here, I just sent the original black one. Also, I have the SS ADA long head bolts here that came with the round alloy alum head w/ 40mm cap, that's on my new 43cc piston port scooter engine now where I used studs, nuts and washers to hold the head and cyld.
All looks great, how thick is the base gasket, looks like 1/10 of and inch, or is it just an optical illusion, lol.
The fitting in the manifold was for a boost bottle, but will work as a purge connection.

Empty Pockets Racing: The difficult we do, the impossible takes longer.....

Last edited by EPR; 2 Weeks Ago at 02:22 PM.
EPR is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
BUILDEM,WRECKEM,REBUILDEM
 
CAM2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 21,201
Re: Billet Case Cag Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPR View Post
Guess what I found today?? A brand new 8 tooth #25 chain Cag clutch housing, perfect for the billet case.
Also found a new 6 tooth 8mm pinion housing, could go to 8mm chain have 54 tooth rear gear.
That engine will bolt right into the Lucky 7 with the side exhaust. The foot pegs are on the front axle, helps keep the front wheel down, lol. I think the rear gear on the 7 now is 60 tooth & 8 tooth, 7.5 to 1, or a 7 tooth, 8.6 to 1. Or 66 rear and 8 front, 8.25 to 1. So many combinations.
The fuel inlet must have broke during shipping, I swear they were all there, lol. I have a bunch of new Walbro parts, bulbs etc., will look. Can I buy a new black inlet from Dave's??
I have like 5 of them orange coils here, I just sent the original black one. Also, I have the SS ADA long head bolts here that came with the round alloy alum head w/ 40mm cap, that's on my new 43cc piston port scooter engine now where I used studs, nuts and washers to hold the head and cyld.
All looks great, how thick is the base gasket, looks like 1/10 of and inch, or is it just an optical illusion, lol.
The fitting in the manifold was for a boost bottle, but will work as a purge connection.
Id get a black plastic inlet from Daves or ebay……..

That's funny you mentioned head bolts.....LOL

I had to make the threads longer then shorten the length on them..LOL




No the basegasket isn't an optical illusion....I had to add one because the EZ-PULL pullstarter couldn't even turn the engine over more than a single pop a pull.....It gets 2-3 now...…….



Cut
Up
Stuff
To
Obtain
Masterpiece

Last edited by CAM2; 2 Weeks Ago at 08:39 PM.
CAM2 is offline  
Super Moderator
 
MrKitty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Age: 39
Posts: 1,635
Garage
forget thay easy pull lol get the oven mit out

Faster then a speeding E Revo
MrKitty is offline  
post #106 of 150 (permalink) Old 2 Weeks Ago Thread Starter
Re: Billet Case Cag Again

CAM2, that engine looks Sick. Good thing its a pumper carb, I don't think a piston carb would run right at that angle. The bolts, I never looked cause the cases are different than a Cag, and the SS ones are even longer, lol. Do we want a heavy flywheel, that's why I sent that set up, have a few more of them. Have one on my 49cc hp engine in my A2 Cag. that makes it easier to pull there kind of spongy. On this engine every things different it might not work right. I have many other flywheel and starter housings here, from stock to lighten & modified.

Empty Pockets Racing: The difficult we do, the impossible takes longer.....
EPR is offline  
PBP RACER
 
Chrisi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Age: 36
Posts: 190
Garage
I think you will get problems with a over exhaust, will need a under exhaust or an other angel at the intake manifolder. EPR you know that you can run on this cases 70cc scooter cylinders?

Get your kick with 2 stroke mix
Chrisi is offline  
PBP SENIOR MEMBER
 
Kimjon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 351
Nothing a welder won't fix
Kimjon is offline  
BUILDEM,WRECKEM,REBUILDEM
 
CAM2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 21,201
Re: Billet Case Cag Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPR View Post
CAM2, that engine looks Sick. Good thing its a pumper carb, I don't think a piston carb would run right at that angle. The bolts, I never looked cause the cases are different than a Cag, and the SS ones are even longer, lol. Do we want a heavy flywheel, that's why I sent that set up, have a few more of them. Have one on my 49cc hp engine in my A2 Cag. that makes it easier to pull there kind of spongy. On this engine every things different it might not work right. I have many other flywheel and starter housings here, from stock to lighten & modified.
Two things I hate about those EZ Pull pullstarters....The delay in pulling and the noise the pawls make when you spin the clutch......

In any event it should start up easily tune easily and run really really good despite having the compression slightly lowered so the pullstarters can turn the crank more than 1 revolution at a time on a full pull....

From the squish calculation.Im guestimating between 180 and 190psi...I'll have to either go to HF or my storage unit for my compression gauge to get a reading....

IDK about going with a heavier flywheel yet....I guess you can figure that out but seeings you're a pretty light guy it shouldn't matter at all...What will matter is the amount of power it will belt out and I'm guestimating around 7.5hp on pumpgas.....

I'm having a small problem sealing up the intake where you cut the rubber intake off...I tried filing it as flat as I can but it's still leaking...I saw you used red rtv and a gasket....I'm gonna just seal it with Motoseal and call it a day when I get home tonight...

Cut
Up
Stuff
To
Obtain
Masterpiece

Last edited by CAM2; 2 Weeks Ago at 01:20 PM.
CAM2 is offline  
BUILDEM,WRECKEM,REBUILDEM
 
CAM2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 21,201
Re: Billet Case Cag Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimjon View Post
Nothing a welder won't fix
Yep....exactly....

Cut
Up
Stuff
To
Obtain
Masterpiece
CAM2 is offline  
PBP RACER
 
Chrisi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Age: 36
Posts: 190
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimjon View Post
Nothing a welder won't fix
But it's easyer when you don't need a welder😉.
I don't know if EPR's crankhous fit a 70cc barrel but I know that there were looking the same cases from Italy for 70cc scooter barrel.

Get your kick with 2 stroke mix
Chrisi is offline  
post #112 of 150 (permalink) Old 2 Weeks Ago Thread Starter
Re: Billet Case Cag Again

I think the 70cc scooter crank has a lot longer stroke than a Cag engine. I am going to put the engine in the Lucky 7, it has a custom side pipe and is already hooked to the PBU alum winged exhaust manifold, easy swap, for now.
I ordered 2 Walbro gas inlets from Dave's, I emailed Dave's last night, I got the 603 inlet they said its the same a the HDA223 carb.
Yeah, I knew the intake would need sealing, it was broken when I started so I ground it as flat I could, I had it mounted on my 50cc C1, way back, even put a purge fitting in the cases near the intake area, but the carb would not pump fuel so I went back to the 19mm Dell clone carb.
I have many welders, 225amp stick, 70amp arc, 70amp wire welder and tanks and a torch oxy/aycl.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Cag Billet Case Engine.jpg (466.5 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg Lucky 7 Extended Frame1.jpg (499.5 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg Lucky 7 Side Pipe Exhaust2.jpg (405.2 KB, 3 views)

Empty Pockets Racing: The difficult we do, the impossible takes longer.....
EPR is offline  
PBP RACER
 
Chrisi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Age: 36
Posts: 190
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by EPR View Post
I think the 70cc scooter crank has a lot longer stroke than a Cag engine. I am going to put the engine in the Lucky 7, it has a custom side pipe and is already hooked to the PBU alum winged exhaust manifold, easy swap, for now.
I ordered 2 Walbro gas inlets from Dave's, I emailed Dave's last night, I got the 603 inlet they said its the same a the HDA223 carb.
Yeah, I knew the intake would need sealing, it was broken when I started so I ground it as flat I could, I had it mounted on my 50cc C1, way back, even put a purge fitting in the cases near the intake area, but the carb would not pump fuel so I went back to the 19mm Dell clone carb.
I have many welders, 225amp stick, 70amp arc, 70amp wire welder and tanks and a torch oxy/aycl.
Yes I know that there is a longer stroke on the 70cc barrel, but thereis the right crankshaft available that fit in this crankcase with 39,xx mm stroke for the 70cc barrels.

Get your kick with 2 stroke mix
Chrisi is offline  
BUILDEM,WRECKEM,REBUILDEM
 
CAM2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 21,201
Re: Billet Case Cag Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisi View Post
But it's easyer when you don't need a welder😉.
I don't know if EPR's crankhous fit a 70cc barrel but I know that there were looking the same cases from Italy for 70cc scooter barrel.
When you go to the Avonteca page it states to pick whether you want a 50cc or a 70cc so there maybe two different cases...

In any event RCFish90 put a Athena 70cc kit 47mm on the Avonteca case with a 36mm bid-a-lot crankshaft...He had a problem fitting a 39mm Im pretty sure and adjusted the cylinder to fit by removing a lil off the cylinder base………...




Cut
Up
Stuff
To
Obtain
Masterpiece

Last edited by CAM2; 2 Weeks Ago at 09:34 PM.
CAM2 is offline  
post #115 of 150 (permalink) Old 2 Weeks Ago Thread Starter
Re: Billet Case Cag Again

Or the 50 and 70cc have different strokes. After seeing what RCFish90 went thru, I am going no thanks, lol.
I was surprised when I read about the piston and rings you used. If I want to go faster I get my BZM powered GRC, lol. It helps if the piston is on BDC when you pull the rope. There is another starter system I have too like a piston port set up with big round steel pawl and pins in the starter pulley.

Empty Pockets Racing: The difficult we do, the impossible takes longer.....
EPR is offline  
BUILDEM,WRECKEM,REBUILDEM
 
CAM2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 21,201
Re: Billet Case Cag Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPR View Post
Or the 50 and 70cc have different strokes. After seeing what RCFish90 went thru, I am going no thanks, lol.
I was surprised when I read about the piston and rings you used. If I want to go faster I get my BZM powered GRC, lol. It helps if the piston is on BDC when you pull the rope. There is another starter system I have too like a piston port set up with big round steel pawl and pins in the starter pulley.
Thats a given...Its 44mm x 34mm vs 47mm x 39mm.........…

The best one is the regular original style that comes on the cag and you add the metal claw or buy an all aluminum pullstarter…...….Depending on the manufacturer of the flywheels determines the strength of the pull snags on the center....



The best part is that once the rope is retracted the claw retracts into the spool well clear of the flywheel..

Whats funny is the setup is almost identical to a Polini style flywheel and pullstarter except the Polini isn't a EZ-Pull style either....LOL

Seeings that engine is gonna run a lot hotter than a traditional cast aluminum and magnesium mix engine cases I left it as-is...……...

I think the EZ-Pull will work descently for you seeings its quite easy to pull and you don't feel the compression....2-3 pops per pull is enough to get that thing cranking over and starting up very quickly with the pumper carb...…

When you add up the volume of both a stock cag and the modified billet cases the volume is just about equal with a FCC …...The billet engine is slightly smaller in volume but the real benefits are the intake placement and the better reedblock and intake passage so the way its built is gonna be a pretty potent and easy to tune engine....

Cut
Up
Stuff
To
Obtain
Masterpiece

Last edited by CAM2; 2 Weeks Ago at 09:48 AM.
CAM2 is offline  
BUILDEM,WRECKEM,REBUILDEM
 
CAM2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 21,201
Re: Billet Case Cag Again

Alright so heres the summary to this deal...…….

I first did a leakdown pressure check without the intake on and it passed with flying colors...The case seal, crank seals , base seal and headcap seal are beautiful...

It held 10psi for longer than expected....Those SKF crankseals holds greater pressure over the chinese crank seals hands down...….

If anyone is interested in the size and number the size is 25mm x 15mm x 5mm and the number is #5808.

The bearings used were 35mm x 15mm x 10mm and the number is SKF 6202...………..

Then I sealed-up the intake area again and performed another leakdown test and that passed aswell so its safe to say the whole thing is perfectly sealed.And it held the pressure longer than expected once again too..

It weighs in at a pretty hefty 9.7lbs has great compression at 188psi aswell as pretty awesome suction...Once the rings seat to the cylinder the compression will go up slightly before going slightly down with each use...




The E-3 sparkplug has bright very audible and snappy sounding spark so it will ignite fuel very well.The rocket key is set retarded so the crank is gonna wanna spin on the topend......…..

For the clutch how much takeoff do you want?

For fuel and oil Id mix the gas n oil to 36:1 and use nothing less than 93 octane fuel although 95 octane is definitely preferred...

The remote pulse port and the fuel inlet have been fixed....I robbed the metal inlet and return hose barbs from the WT603 rep carb and used one of them for the remote pulse nipple from the intake aswell as the other for replacing the broken plastic fuel inlet...…….

As you can see it works out pretty well....



Later Im gonna pull the carb apart to clean it out seeings it seems to be used by the ethanol residue in the primer bulb...Im also going to adjust the popoff pressure too...…..

Cut
Up
Stuff
To
Obtain
Masterpiece

Last edited by CAM2; 2 Weeks Ago at 02:01 PM.
CAM2 is offline  
post #118 of 150 (permalink) Old 2 Weeks Ago Thread Starter
Re: Billet Case Cag Again

That's why I sent the rebuild kit, got the 223 from, was it Hugh, from SDScooters, he told me it was not pumping gas.
I like the Chinese metal fuel nipples, did they fit with no mods. Love the JEGS sticker, looks good w/ the yellow plug wire and fuel lines. Now everyone will be asking, did you get that engine from Jegs, lol. I follow NHRA, IHRA, as I am sure you do too. John ( hurricane ) Force, is my favorite.
I was wondering about the clutch weight and springs. Would it be better to run a steel arm clutch at around 6,000 RPM engagement, would be a happy compromise. I am asking cause the flywheel is very heavy compared to the clutch side of the crank, would that effect the balance of the crank??
I have this starter on another bike, Your remove the flywheel bolt put a couple of washers in the hole and put the round pawl over the flywheel put the bolt back and your set. Both types have way more leverage than the stock one.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg New Style Cag Alum Starter Housing3.jpg (179.9 KB, 4 views)

Empty Pockets Racing: The difficult we do, the impossible takes longer.....

Last edited by EPR; 2 Weeks Ago at 02:41 PM.
EPR is offline  
PBP SENIOR MEMBER
 
Kimjon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 351
Looks fantastic in those colours. And great stats too, love reading details like these to build my own knowledge base upon. Great stuff!!!
Kimjon is offline  
BUILDEM,WRECKEM,REBUILDEM
 
CAM2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 21,201
Re: Billet Case Cag Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPR View Post
That's why I sent the rebuild kit, got the 223 from, was it Hugh, from SDScooters, he told me it was not pumping gas.
I like the Chinese metal fuel nipples, did they fit with no mods. Love the JEGS sticker, looks good w/ the yellow plug wire and fuel lines. Now everyone will be asking, did you get that engine from Jegs, lol. I follow NHRA, IHRA, as I am sure you do too. John ( hurricane ) Force, is my favorite.
I was wondering about the clutch weight and springs. Would it be better to run a steel arm clutch at around 6,000 RPM engagement, would be a happy compromise. I am asking cause the flywheel is very heavy compared to the clutch side of the crank, would that effect the balance of the crank??
I have this starter on another bike, Your remove the flywheel bolt put a couple of washers in the hole and put the round pawl over the flywheel put the bolt back and your set. Both types have way more leverage than the stock one.
I do a lot of business with Jegs....I figured seeings you ran a dragbike you'd get a kick out of the mini sticker on the pullcover…...LOL

Whats funnier is the guy who used to make your camshafts was and still is bigtime into two stroke engines too....You should check out his latest article on his custom built twin cylinder counter rotational 2 stroke engine......The guys like 90 and still developing sikk powerplants..……..LOL

I miss Hugh....One time he sent me an email saying he was cleaning out the garage and wanted to send me a few boxes full of parts he no longer wanted....I must've answered his pm too late but its cool....He was a very helpful guy..

As far as the clutch and the flywheel being unbalanced.....That's gonna always be and adding rotational weight with a steel clutch will just kill back revs and a lil power plus add a lot of heat....

They can never balance out because as the engine idles without engagement it will be unloaded...When the clutch grabs you and the weight of the bike will be loaded on the clutch side making the flywheel lighter...……….Its gonna be a back n forth tradeoff like all engines....

For the pullstarter...If that's the one you want to swap in....Its cool...Ive never ever used that type on a reeded engine but I do know they work really well on the piston ported engines as long as its not an EZ-Pull design..

After the engine is broken-in you can pop the head to decarbonize the pistontop and remove the basegasket to bump-up the compression back up......

Should be firing it up soon..I first want to see if the carb will pump fuel before so Im not wasting parts...Im pretty busy at the moment and soon the dredging contract is coming up and Im debating hard on taking the assignment after last years fiasco.....

It's not like I need the $$ anymore but its just as expensive to live here than live there in Cali so I better keep banking loot for my retirement and retire when I should...LOL

I have a feeling retiring early will just hurt me in the long run...So does my accountant...LOL

Cut
Up
Stuff
To
Obtain
Masterpiece

Last edited by CAM2; 1 Week Ago at 09:19 AM.
CAM2 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Pocket Bike Forum - Mini Bikes forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome