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post #1 of 97 (permalink) Old 10-11-2019 Thread Starter
Billet Case Cag Again

For the third time I am working on the 49cc billet alum cased engine. Still has a few problems with the case halves matching right, CAM2 knows all about this engine, lol. I split the cases, removed the crank, inspected everything. When you hold them together at the reed intake area, there is a small gap most of the way around the rounded part of the case. They did not machine the halve where they mate, there not flat.
So, the plan is to use my new tube of #4 Yamabond to fill the gaps, and maybe some .015" gasket material if needed.
They also machined the main bearing holes to deep, so the crank ends were rubbing the side of the cases inside. So, I put four .004" Zenoah 15mm ID crank shims, 4 on each side to stop.
Need to keep the case halves as close together as possible cause the main trans case port are really wide, very little sealing area at the base of the cyld, plus some other small problems
Going put a new head, blue billet winged head on this time. Here are some photos the last time I put it together.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Cag Billet case Engine 2.jpg (495.0 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg Cag Billet Case Engine.jpg (466.5 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg Cag Billet Case Engine Apart 1.jpg (507.8 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg Cag Billet Cases Close Up 3.jpg (418.1 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg Cag Billet Cases Split 2.jpg (500.0 KB, 12 views)

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post #2 of 97 (permalink) Old 10-11-2019
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can you lap the case halves flat using a glass table or a big piece of glass? Sounds like you have plenty of endplay to move things around...

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post #3 of 97 (permalink) Old 10-11-2019
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Re: Billet Case Cag Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPR View Post
For the third time I am working on the 49cc billet alum cased engine. Still has a few problems with the case halves matching right, CAM2 knows all about this engine, lol. I split the cases, removed the crank, inspected everything. When you hold them together at the reed intake area, there is a small gap most of the way around the rounded part of the case. They did not machine the halve where they mate, there not flat.
So, the plan is to use my new tube of #4 Yamabond to fill the gaps, and maybe some .015" gasket material if needed.
They also machined the main bearing holes to deep, so the crank ends were rubbing the side of the cases inside. So, I put four .004" Zenoah 15mm ID crank shims, 4 on each side to stop.
Need to keep the case halves as close together as possible cause the main trans case port are really wide, very little sealing area at the base of the cyld, plus some other small problems
Going put a new head, blue billet winged head on this time. Here are some photos the last time I put it together.

The answer to your problem is staring at you dead in the face and you definately have the tools to fix it...

Put it on your X Y axis and machine down the sides of the case halves in the outer part of the inside jug area where the bearings are with a flute cutter and mill down the outter part of the jug halves on each side to give you the room needed to fit the crank with alot lesser shims added on each side to keep the crank from hitting the crankcase jug outsides only after you lap the cases to get a tight seal so you can figure how much to shave off each side.........It will also clean up all the ugly that will add turbulence and diminish performance.....The outter parts need to be milled flat and the dowel pin holes drilled deeper....


Those cases are mega thick so youre safe to remove a fair amount of aluminum from the sides so all you need is simple old sealer to fill an ordinary and normal type of void instead of an abnormal width in relation to the rest of the case as the sealer is gonna make the gap even wider....

Its quite evident from the outter walls being so choppy instead of smooth DriverD's mill was very old and if it was a CNC mill that made that billet crankcase the machine wasn't trammed properly or the machine was old n worn out in the spindle ares also to mention probably didn't properly add in area figures or digitize the program as successfully as it needed to be digitized[smoothed] to get the proper outcome...

Whats the weight difference between the billet and the stock crankcase?

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Last edited by CAM2; 4 Weeks Ago at 10:04 PM.
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post #4 of 97 (permalink) Old 4 Weeks Ago
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrKitty View Post
can you lap the case halves flat using a glass table or a big piece of glass? Sounds like you have plenty of endplay to move things around...
Was thinking exactly the same thing.

Nice looking motor all things considered. Should be super cool once you sort out those little issues.
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post #5 of 97 (permalink) Old 4 Weeks Ago
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Re: Billet Case Cag Again

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Originally Posted by MrKitty View Post
Sounds like you have plenty of endplay to move things around...
He does but its more like mill more aluminum away..........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimjon View Post
Was thinking exactly the same thing.

Nice looking motor all things considered. Should be super cool once you sort out those little issues.
Those little issues are a lil more than just little seeings DriverD sold EPR a billet case that was no less than 85-90% finished and never proven to work...

Your absolutely right about it being a killer engine when done and when finally done and running it will be stqted as its about time...If Im correct its been atleast 3 years since he bought that billet case...

Ill give ya the cliff notes...case is made too wide to seal the transferports and crank hits the crankcase without having .016" of spacers on each side to force the crank to stay centered and not hit the case...When the crank sideloads at high rpm the spacers will eventually flatten and the crank will start knocking badly..


Quote:
Originally Posted by EPR View Post
.
DriverD also machined the main bearing holes to deep, so the crank ends were rubbing the side of the cases inside. So, I put four .004" Zenoah 15mm ID crank shims, 4 on each side to stop.

Need to keep the case halves as close together as possible cause the main trans case port are really wide, very little sealing area at the base of the cyld, plus some other small problems

Going put a new head, blue billet winged head on this time. Here are some photos the last time I put it together.
Im absolutely sure if EPR couldve done that very easy to do method of grinding both case halves on a flat surface he wouldn't even be here with this thread ?

Im also absolutely sure I read that 4 spacers were used on each side to keep the crank weights from hitting the case.....

Im pretty sure he also wrote that the transfer ports were still pretty wide and would barely seal ..

Whats gonna stop the crankweights from getting even closer to the outer jug area and hitting again when atleast .025-.030" of material on the case half sealing areas still needs to be removed to achieve a flawless and correct seal at the base of the cylinder for the transferports when the cylinder is sealed down..? I quoted the areas EPR wrote and spaced them so they could be read better also better understood.....

It is a given fact that the method of just simply grinding the case halves down on something flat would only be half of the fix also a laborious task seeings he has to remove so much material to achieve a good cylinder base seal and would present even further unforeseen problems when trying to reinstall the crank like crank no fit no more....LOL...

That case needs to be re-milled to the right specs...

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Last edited by CAM2; 4 Weeks Ago at 11:14 PM.
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post #6 of 97 (permalink) Old 4 Weeks Ago Thread Starter
Re: Billet Case Cag Again

I have ask myself a lot of those question before. I don't even know if driverD made the cases. The first problem was the case bearing ID holes were .005" to small and too deep. But I did not know that before I put the bearings I had to remove material and heat the cases to 350F, to get the bearings in. That might have done let the cases change shape. I tried .015" gasket at the closest area. and .035" in the gap areas and copper head gasket spray the second time, then found that the transfer ports were to wide and cyld base and gasket were leaking, that's when I stopped again.
First I need to take some measurements to see where I stand. If there was a gap in the center of the cases and both ends were to high I could fix that on my 12" x 12" piece of glass and sand paper. Only the top of the reed hole and a little at the top of the other side of the cyld hole touch without gasket, most of underside and bottom of the cases have a .025" gap, how strange it that?
My plan is to put a thin layer of Yamabond where it's tight, and thicker layer in all of the gap area with feeler gauges to keep it inline with the crank and bearings. I only put the cyld bolts just touching the cyld base. Let it dry 24hrs and tighten them down and see what happens, I believe it will work if done right. Even after tightening the base bolts with no gasket, the gap will not close, tried many different ways.
Yamabond #4 is made to seal engine cases and covers, just hoping it will work, have way to much money already, not going to spend a bunch more into it. with these case you can cut any extra beading inside from the Yamabond.

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Last edited by EPR; 4 Weeks Ago at 01:47 PM.
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post #7 of 97 (permalink) Old 4 Weeks Ago
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It is absolutely normal that you must heat up the cases to put in the main bearings,I press the bearings on the shaft first, then I put them in the freezer for one hour. Next, I heat up the casings and then insert the cold shaft. I heat up the cases(bzm/polini/IAME/Blata) to 200-220 C (~390-430F).
At the IAME engine it's also normal the the main bearings are spacerd, there are Spacer in 0,10mm and 0,15mm available.
I add the pics for EPR.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 15709945363414290901361072455316_1570994590483.jpg (495.4 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg 1570994639755457564847790791316_1570994648305.jpg (514.5 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg 15709946765303045365268194782779_1570994686513.jpg (507.2 KB, 7 views)

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post #8 of 97 (permalink) Old 4 Weeks Ago
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If the cylinder isn't sealing to the cases, could you machine off say 6mm from cylinder or cases, then add a wide 6mm spacer back to bridge any gaps to achieve a seal around the transfer port area?
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post #9 of 97 (permalink) Old 4 Weeks Ago
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Re: Billet Case Cag Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPR View Post
I have ask myself a lot of those question before. I don't even know if driverD made the cases. The first problem was the case bearing ID holes were .005" to small and too deep. But I did not know that before I put the bearings I had to remove material and heat the cases to 350F, to get the bearings in. That might have done let the cases change shape. I tried .015" gasket at the closest area. and .035" in the gap areas and copper head gasket spray the second time, then found that the transfer ports were to wide and cyld base and gasket were leaking, that's when I stopped again.
First I need to take some measurements to see where I stand. If there was a gap in the center of the cases and both ends were to high I could fix that on my 12" x 12" piece of glass and sand paper. Only the top of the reed hole and a little at the top of the other side of the cyld hole touch without gasket, most of underside and bottom of the cases have a .025" gap, how strange it that?
My plan is to put a thin layer of Yamabond where it's tight, and thicker layer in all of the gap area with feeler gauges to keep it inline with the crank and bearings. I only put the cyld bolts just touching the cyld base. Let it dry 24hrs and tighten them down and see what happens, I believe it will work if done right. Even after tightening the base bolts with no gasket, the gap will not close, tried many different ways.
Yamabond #4 is made to seal engine cases and covers, just hoping it will work, have way to much money already, not going to spend a bunch more into it. with these case you can cut any extra beading inside from the Yamabond.
Here's the thread driverd made for selling those billet cases...I'm pretty certain he made them and was also mentioned in other posts..

In any event it gives more depth into the situation for others who just got on board.....If you look at case pics Driverd's they differ hugely from EPR's especially when EPR first got his billet case....

https://www.pocketbikeplanet.com/189...-models-5.html

If you read what driver writes he states the cases hes selling are a newer design too...He said he used the original design cases for his racing bikes also going off of his specs.......

I know I definitely told you EPR and still probably remember from Day 1 when you first posted them they looked like a dud and then driver disappeared..........poof-gone just as fast as he joined......

The sealer trick isn't gonna work..This I know as Ive tried the so-called fuel resistant stuff in a similar manner which worked oh so temporarily....

Its just like spraying copper headgasket spray on the copper sealing washer and after the engine is taken apart find zero trace of the stuff...LOL.

Theres just too many different temp variables in the expansion and contraction of that ultra smooth non-porous billet aluminum case as temps vary by tune also by day so adheision is going to be an issue even if you rough-up the areas to be glued together.....

If it wasn't a glue you're using and more of an expansion joint type material that has flex like .040" thick rubber fiber material Id say you wouldve had a better than average chance if the transferports wouldn't be open and exposed......

EPR if you want put the engine in a box...send it to me...I'll make it totally right for free plus document the process involved in making it right just so you don't go through any more disappointments and finally get to hear that thing sing..........

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Last edited by CAM2; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:23 PM.
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post #10 of 97 (permalink) Old 4 Weeks Ago Thread Starter
Re: Billet Case Cag Again

Yeah, I still remember you saying something about the mating area of the cases did not look right. He used a 1/2" 4 flute end mill and went back and forth, not the way you make a surface flat, lol. Wish I was still at the machine shop, I would be set. I just don't have the tools to fix it right.
On my BZM 690 cases I just pressed the new Euro bearings in with my 6 ton press on hard wood, they went right in. When I had it set up I did 6 engines I was building from spare parts.
Can't wait to see what you will do, there built proof, but every time I see them I think about the whole mess all over again. I will PM you about it, I have a lot of stuff here I can give you.

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post #11 of 97 (permalink) Old 4 Weeks Ago Thread Starter
Re: Billet Case Cag Again

Chrisi, I answered your PM, I can make the small pulley work, and want the 2 coil brackets too, you will see the PM.

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post #12 of 97 (permalink) Old 4 Weeks Ago
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As a cheap and dirty fix for the bearing clearances, could you cut a ring off an old bearing and use it as a spacer?
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post #13 of 97 (permalink) Old 4 Weeks Ago
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Re: Billet Case Cag Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPR View Post
Yeah, I still remember you saying something about the mating area of the cases did not look right. He used a 1/2" 4 flute end mill and went back and forth, not the way you make a surface flat, lol. Wish I was still at the machine shop, I would be set. I just don't have the tools to fix it right.
On my BZM 690 cases I just pressed the new Euro bearings in with my 6 ton press on hard wood, they went right in. When I had it set up I did 6 engines I was building from spare parts.
Can't wait to see what you will do, there built proof, but every time I see them I think about the whole mess all over again. I will PM you about it, I have a lot of stuff here I can give you.
Yes indeed I see that....I think he bought the original cases then gleaned the design to capitalize on and most likely tried doing it at work on his spare time ..LOL

Just send me everything you want to use...Its my treat to you in helping this situation out in the way you and I know how it needs to be handled....

I want ZERO cash and you definately dont need to feel obligated to me at all.......Ill even pay for the shipping

I know your situation n such so definately don't feel that I think you need charity...You just need a break..

You put trust in a guy to do the right thing and he dropped the ball causing you to lose almost 6 years on this venture and quite personally it really disgusts me to see that and have to see anymore time lost on this other than ride time///...

The lost time in this situation is way more than enough just don't get me started about the ethics .......

PM me when you're ready...

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Last edited by CAM2; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:04 PM.
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post #14 of 97 (permalink) Old 4 Weeks Ago
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Nice one, be cool to see it working.

Even cooler to see how you get it working 😉
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post #15 of 97 (permalink) Old 4 Weeks Ago
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Re: Billet Case Cag Again

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Nice one, be cool to see it working.

Even cooler to see how you get it working 😉
Absolutely..............Im thinking Id slap it on the CNC mni machine but we will see how it goes with mounting the case halves in it...




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Last edited by CAM2; 4 Weeks Ago at 09:31 PM.
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post #16 of 97 (permalink) Old 4 Weeks Ago
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Why does that machine look like a Ghost Gunner ??? dude thats epic 🙂 !!!!! how do you like it??

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Last edited by MrKitty; 4 Weeks Ago at 10:28 PM.
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post #17 of 97 (permalink) Old 4 Weeks Ago
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Re: Billet Case Cag Again

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Why does that machine look like a Ghost Gunner ??? humm
IDK....Can you see the parts in pic #3.....Those aint airsoft parts.....LOL

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Last edited by CAM2; 4 Weeks Ago at 10:14 PM.
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post #18 of 97 (permalink) Old 4 Weeks Ago Thread Starter
Re: Billet Case Cag Again

Thank CAM2, the cases touch at the place where the cyld mounts to the cases, the intake side and other side the gap starts, and the cases outside is wider. I will PM you tomorrow.

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post #19 of 97 (permalink) Old 3 Weeks Ago
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Re: Billet Case Cag Again

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Why does that machine look like a Ghost Gunner ??? dude thats epic 🙂 !!!!! how do you like it??
50/50....Ive had it for the better of 4 years now and had to repair it about 14 times......

Some of the programs are pretty agressive on the cutting commands and the machine tries to be bigger than it actually is and bite off more than it can chew in a single bite.

Theyve should of included a built-in limiter that limits the amount of cutting force the head can exert by allowing it to trip or pause requiring a reset which would warrant an inspection into why its tripping.....

Other than that when its operational it does what I need it to do plus a lil more......

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Last edited by CAM2; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:39 PM.
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post #20 of 97 (permalink) Old 3 Weeks Ago
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Re: Billet Case Cag Again

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Thank CAM2, the cases touch at the place where the cyld mounts to the cases, the intake side and other side the gap starts, and the cases outside is wider. I will PM you tomorrow.
You're very welcome EPR..Anything to help out to lighten the load on your already full plate....

I got the pm's and your replies aren't coming up...I got the message about you sending the package and its being sent to one my business offices and my office manager is on the lookout for it to arrive..

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