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Hey Electric Experts, Doing a Conv Need Some Advice!

4K views 18 replies 6 participants last post by  Blitz$M.Inc.$ 
#1 ·
Hey Guys,

I am converting an X2 to electric and wanted to pick your brains a bit. I just pulled a modified gas motor out of it and am used to it having a top end of about 40mph. I dont need the electic conversion to go that fast but would still like a bit of speed. I was thinking I might go 36 volts and run a 750watt motor. I know the Eteks are very fast but I dont want to put that much money in it.

So what are the pros and cons of going 24volt compared to 36 volt and what is considered a decent motor size (350,500,750 watt etc.) that will give me a balence of good run times but yet a decent top speed (30mph would be great!) I know gearing plays a big role and I can experiment with that but I need a good platform to build on!

Brian
 
G
#2 ·
you will not even get past 25mph with those motors! even on 48volts. Even if you did, the bike would not have enuff power for racing gas bikes. Why would you take out the 2.5hp gas engine just to put in an underpowered 1hp electric motor? you are asking for a big let down later on your first test runs. Dont look at OEM china replacement motors for power, go to a robotwars web sites and look at some higher amp drive motors. I am sure you will learn a lot in the proccess as well. but dont forget to over match the amp rating on the motor with a higher amp controller(add 50-100amps to stall load curent of the motor)

Really look at 24volt set ups first, if you go with lower voltage and high amp batteries, you will gain a lot of power over the weight of the bike. Keep in mind adding a battery adds 18-25pounds each! so if you go for a 36volt bike you will have over 50-75pounds in just batteries alone!...for every 5 pounds you add to your bike you loose top end at nearly 1-4mph off your top speed and it will also load up your batteries a lot too, so the run time will be effected as well...

Gearing has nothing to do with making a bike. You focus on gearing after your first couple runs, so you have a base line for the torque your bike is making with the set up your running.

LoL, you dont want to mess with Eteks, not enuff RpM for pocket bikes, maybe for pocket bike drag racing if your too much of a pussy to turn the bike like most do for the most part. but other then that the Efficiency of Eteks is very poor and they need brush changes like every 100hours of use as well!!!! look for a motor with a 75-85%Efficiency rating at the voltage of your choice for the most part...the china motors your looking at(36volt750watt) have a very poor rating less then 70%, for real! so in lamens turms your loosing over %30 of the imput power even befor the rear tire gets any! (in other words, your wasting money and power)
 
#5 ·
LoL, you dont want to mess with Eteks, not enuff RpM for pocket bikes, maybe for pocket bike drag racing if your too much of a pussy to turn the bike like most do for the most part. but other then that the Efficiency of Eteks is very poor and they need brush changes like every 100hours of use as well!!!! look for a motor with a 75-85%Efficiency rating at the voltage of your choice for the most part...the china motors your looking at(36volt750watt) have a very poor rating less then 70%, for real! so in lamens turms your loosing over %30 of the imput power even befor the rear tire gets any! (in other words, your wasting money and power)
Eteks work great for any application on a pocket bike really, low weight high power, and efficiency of over 85% even when used at higher amperage. And i guess i must be a pu$$y as well, cause i drag bikes, oh wells.
 
#3 ·
Ok let me clarify the direction I am going. I wont be racing this bike at all. I just built an NSR50 with a XR100 that I use for the track. This bike is just for fun and I was just sick of how loud the gas bike was. If I get 25mph that would be awesome! I dont really care about it being super fast. $800 is just way to much for me to spend on this (I just dropped $2500 into my NSR). I wanted to spend about $300-$400 remember this is not a bike for competition. I am trying to find a balence of decent speed yet good run times.
 
#4 ·
here's your option:
you can get 36v 1000 watt motor, run it @ the 36 volt or bump it up to 48volt which will put you @ 30mph full of fun( if you use 48volts get the 48v 50 amp controller), i think them work the best without draining your batteries... or you can go for the 48v 1000 watt motor and bump it up to 60volts( that's if you have enough room for batteries... ) controller and motor is around 150.00 then it's up to you on what choice of batteries you go with... for good range i would not go under 5 to 1 ratio... but if you want a wheelie machine or fast @ stall go higher on the gearing
note: the motors i mentioned have an 8mm sprocket on them but you can order a #25 sprocket if you need it in 10 tooth or 11 tooth.... hope this helps in what you need....
 
G
#6 ·
johnws6, sorry man dont take it wrong

johnws6, your bike is by far a drag bike and I think it is cool you put so much torque in it, but in the end your only using 25% of the potential of the bike not turning it.....Trust me, the first time you power out of an apex on 100% power you will poop your pants with how scary it feels...me I dig that part of Electrics very much and the only reasion I have to call the Drag pocket bikes pussy is any one can slam huge power in a bike only to hold it down a 1/8th mile and turn it off.......It takes mad skills to harness the power in the turns with out high sided with all the battery weight we Electric lovers have in our bikes...In my mind it is the art of power and weight so you dont go into a turn like a big war ship in a hard last minute attemp to miss a mine field or something else....

I my self have gotten flung of my 80 pound bikes like a rag doll up and over 5ft in the air at only 30mph! LoL gas bikes wont do that unless the rider is a newB on an open class 14hp bike.....Like I said, any one can go in a line and not get hurt and for that, what fun do you really have at the end of the day bragging how fast your bike will go if you dont have skills to hold it in a tight turn at speed?

Right now I am making a "Ampflow"(magmotor style with some extras) powered bike that will weigh less then a water cooled pocket bike(55-60pounds) and have nearly as much power as an open class as well(5-10hp @ 10k+RPM, Hmmmm) sure you may say I will burn my bike up running a 10pound motor pushing 200pounds(@480 amps) of load for hard racing, but keep in mind my bike is a "Race bike" and will need brush changes in less then every 20min of run time. I plan on having a box of brushes with me on my first test dates and very much need them as well...I would have used an Etek but they only make 2k RPM at the voltage(24-36volts@500-1000amp peak output!) I will be running to make the weight I need the bike not to be over in the end.

Some know who I am already and most of them dont care for me being here, but in the end I will be on top of this sport in the end with my next bike after this one, HP so high if I told, most of you would think I am a mad man...LoL

Too many people realy on cheep china motors right now, because of that reasion.....No one cares about the things we do and our achivements are farly over looked at best, Do any of you know DC powered cars were made befor gas? well it is true! But at the time the 6volt 2amp cels they used had no power to them at all to push the hourse less buggies that they were propelling for longer runs even after gas engines came to be....

good luck and be safe
RB
 
#9 ·
Re: johnws6, sorry man dont take it wrong

johnws6, your bike is by far a drag bike and I think it is cool you put so much torque in it, but in the end your only using 25% of the potential of the bike not turning it.....Trust me, the first time you power out of an apex on 100% power you will poop your pants with how scary it feels...me I dig that part of Electrics very much and the only reasion I have to call the Drag pocket bikes pussy is any one can slam huge power in a bike only to hold it down a 1/8th mile and turn it off.......It takes mad skills to harness the power in the turns with out high sided with all the battery weight we Electric lovers have in our bikes...In my mind it is the art of power and weight so you dont go into a turn like a big war ship in a hard last minute attemp to miss a mine field or something else....

I my self have gotten flung of my 80 pound bikes like a rag doll up and over 5ft in the air at only 30mph! LoL gas bikes wont do that unless the rider is a newB on an open class 14hp bike.....Like I said, any one can go in a line and not get hurt and for that, what fun do you really have at the end of the day bragging how fast your bike will go if you dont have skills to hold it in a tight turn at speed?

Right now I am making a "Ampflow"(magmotor style with some extras) powered bike that will weigh less then a water cooled pocket bike(55-60pounds) and have nearly as much power as an open class as well(5-10hp @ 10k+RPM, Hmmmm) sure you may say I will burn my bike up running a 10pound motor pushing 200pounds(@480 amps) of load for hard racing, but keep in mind my bike is a "Race bike" and will need brush changes in less then every 20min of run time. I plan on having a box of brushes with me on my first test dates and very much need them as well...I would have used an Etek but they only make 2k RPM at the voltage(24-36volts@500-1000amp peak output!) I will be running to make the weight I need the bike not to be over in the end.

Some know who I am already and most of them dont care for me being here, but in the end I will be on top of this sport in the end with my next bike after this one, HP so high if I told, most of you would think I am a mad man...LoL

Too many people realy on cheep china motors right now, because of that reasion.....No one cares about the things we do and our achivements are farly over looked at best, Do any of you know DC powered cars were made befor gas? well it is true! But at the time the 6volt 2amp cels they used had no power to them at all to push the hourse less buggies that they were propelling for longer runs even after gas engines came to be....

good luck and be safe
RB
If you are planning on running a c40-300 magmotor at 480 amps you will fry it in those 20 minutes, and even worse is you will also de-magnetize the magnets in the can itself. You will also need to be running a lithium setup to push that kind of power and keep a low weight as you mentioned. As far as running a etek at 24-36 volts, it makes more sense to run it higher than this since you will use less amperage and will get better run time and better performance rather than trying to push more amps through the motor.
 
G
#10 ·
the c40 will take up to 500 amps, the only thing that will fry is the soft brushes that I plan on having a box of spares...trust me, I was on with many people on many battle bot sites and even the owner of ampflow and many more poeple that say the motr will work for the time frame I plan on using it for(10-15 min runs max)

as for Li batteries, they dont have the amp/weight ratio I demand for my aplication and could not even dump the power I need froma a 30 pound battery pack I am running...I plan on using hawker and or SVR racing batteries(14ah sized, maybe doped)
Bolth of those batteries listed can dump 300-400amps constantly for my run time with a 1000+ amp rating on a full dump...they will work the numbers have proven that and many people have already raced 24v setups with hawker and SVR powering 200amp motors for a lot longer run time than I need them for, so if I dump all the curent they have to offer, they will still last my time frame running stock acid...but if they dont I can always use aluminum oxide water and dope them to make even more curent(think of it as cheep nitro for electrics) Note: doped cels tend to blow up so leave this mod to people that know the amount to add to make the lead batteries run like alcaline(a doped battery has no acid in it, just aluminum and battery water)

I have 2 grand for this bike, and the options shown will only cost half that, so if the amp flow motor dies on testing.....there is always better things to use...LOL, not an Etek(etek's are only rated for 4000rpm and will blow up any higher), I need a motor that will make 10hp@ over 10k RPM to keep up with race bikes. Etek's are only ment for grunt force and not speed... I already have a back up motor planned if the ampflow cuts out and can have it made in less then 3 weeks custom made for my aplication.


I too use to belive voltage made speed, but it is amps that really make HP far more easy then higher voltage could ever make...
think of it as a fire hose running on a gardon hose presure, then hook it up to a fire hydrent and now the fire hose works a lot better and has a higher flow rate as well.
 
#13 ·
I have run c40-300s before and they wont be able to take that kind of abuse that you are talking about. 500 amps on that motor over and over will definetely fry it, not tryin to rain on your parade but unless you like to go through 300 dollar motors this will just be a waste of time. When i ran mine just with a 275 amp 36 volt controller for 15 minutes on just 3 12volt 12 ah batts the motor would be so hot you could not touch it. It's really only meant for 3 minute bouts with battlebots and robot wars type scnerios.

As for lithium batts not meeting the application you describe, you are aiming for 10 hp correct? So thats about 10 kw of power basically, a123 batts would meet this with ease. A123 is rated at 3kw per kg, with a 30 pound pack you could get 40 kw out of it.
 
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#11 ·
"""cutlasskel, Just an FYI.... a 20 minute ride time (before brush change) might not get you to the finish line on the "bigger" pocketbike tracks (BeaveRun, possibly VIR) against open classers."""

well I planned on attending the new road corse they set up some time this year, The brushes come out of the C40 from the out side. It should take me the same time to change them as most take to gas ther bikes up(in the worst case)....my back up motor wich has a lot more HP(a lot more, like 4X) will have a run time ratting for 30-45min wich is longer then my batteries will last if you ask me.....
 
#15 ·
The brushes come out of the C40 from the out side. It should take me the same time to change them as most take to gas ther bikes up
The point wasn't how long it takes to change them. The point is how long they last. Look at the lap times for those tracks and do the math.

I just dont want to sit back and wait any longer for my dreams to be made from some one else, it is time for us to have the respect EV'ers need for how hard it is to make our sport a real sport.

*** why cant we have EV races here, sure we have drag racing in CA but it is time for real closed course racing. Some people already belive I can pull this off, but for the most part no one feels they need to help but a few.
You CAN have EV races. Show up to a track sometime.You have been on this "dream" for at least a couple of years now that I can count. I have seen way too many wheelies in the living room, and donuts in the driveway videos. But strangely, I have yet to see one second of any of your bikes on a real track. I know for FACT that you have been invited to participate with the TSMRR guys on several occasions. Why not show up?

The overriding fact is this......until you prove otherwise, you are all talk. Big talk. No more, no less. Now don't take this as an attack on your dream or your person, as it isn't. It is merely somebody who actually goes to the track(and travels outside of a 4 hour radius) to do so, becoming frustrated with all of the talk, with no proof. There have been people in the pb community to try and help you. People are genuinely interested in the ebikes. What they aren't interested in however, is part 2 of the same song and dance about how the future of pb racing is electric...blah, blah
Guess what cowboy? Real racers race. Period. We race in the now, with an eye toward the future. There is absolutely no replacement for mixing it up on the track, especially if you are used to riding solo. Get out there with a slower bike. We don't care. Get out there on a faster bike, we don't care. Get on the track. Stop talking and start doing. If this was truly your dream, then nothing short of an act of God would keep you from an open track day...
 
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#14 ·
john, did you water jacket the motor? It is duel shaft, you can run a small water pump on the non driver side of the motor and rap the motor with silicon and 3/4" tubing to keep things cool(60-100*F off the motor temp) in a way the bike I will be taking apart(French's style bike, older member) already has a water coolent system on it and I do plan on running that radiator to help cool such a radical concept..

as for the A123 cells, sure I could make a battery with them, but I plan on having a racing style slider pack set up for battery really fast swaps, so I dont have to worry about charging so 500-600 will be my budget for batteries, that wont even get me 10kw of power with A123 LI...but it will buy me 2-3 leaded packs for no worries on having to bring a charger to the track at all, but I will have a DC-AC converter in my car for my small charger if need be..

I really just dont belive I can afford LI at this time snd I dont want to have one cell out of a 300cel pack blowing and then have to break the whole pack down to try and find it...From what I under stand a high amp A123 set up always blows the leed batteries in the series packs...I just really dont want to invest $900 into a battery pack that is almost 100% chance on failing.

when Cap cell tech comes to the market, then I will invest in to dry cells, but untill I hear a better LI set up, I will not touch the stuff

I really understand what your saying, but please dont take me as pushing your help to the side. your words are of some one that has done it already and those are the words PbP needs to hear. I just want to push old school tech to the limmits and see if I can succeed in it as well. Every person has ther own thoughts on what we need to do to make this market open up, I just dont want to sit back and wait any longer for my dreams to be made from some one else, it is time for us to have the respect EV'ers need for how hard it is to make our sport a real sport.

My friend in EV carts, has been doing it for years but has to fly out of the states over seas for those races. *** why cant we have EV races here, sure we have drag racing in CA but it is time for real closed course racing. no one in the USA has seen a EV really do what it does best, speed out of an apex like it was from the Movie "Tron"...then we will see a BIG change in the way the market is right now. ****, If I had to pay the real full cost for my custom monster motor, it would be more then my budget alone...but he is making it for me and giving it at cost to pave the way he sees in my dreams... Some people already belive I can pull this off, but for the most part no one feels they need to help but a few.

I have been pounding numbers for a long time now and they are staring to make sence and show that the bike will be far beyond what I need it to be, so a programable controller will fix out any HP I dont need or want in the end
 
#16 ·
Even with the water cooling idea i doubt it will help, the cooling would have to be in the can itself or built into it somehow. If you are goin to spend 300 or so dollars on a c40 take a look at some other options. I dont know why you are so against the eteks, the rpms really dont matter, you can gear hp any way you want to as long as you have the torque you need at lower rpms. With my forklift motor i only get good power below 2000 rpm anyways, it doesn't need to rev out.

If you want to run a lower voltage motor look into some surplus places online, i know for a fact you can find plow motors and such for about 100 dollars which would probably work better for what you are looking for. The only problem with running the motors with lower voltages is that you have to run more amps to have the same power. If i were you and i was aiming to make a track bike, i would see if i could find some nicad cells cheap somewhere, and run the etek rt motor, its 20 hp at 72 volts and it will handle the abuse with no problem at all.

The way i see it is that if you just go with what will work instead of trying to re-engineer what doesn't really work you will spend less time and money and save yourself the frustrations.
 
G
#17 ·
I have said it befor and I will say it again, the reason I have no track time is because, I have no tracks in my area and the closest pocket bike track near me on the east coast is in NJ and the last time I went there was over a year ago and it took me 8 hours. Etown and Beaver run are the clesest tracks to me and bolth are out of state, so I need to bring something worth while, right?

as for the C40 motor, I said it was to gain investors so I could have my custom motor castes for me in CA. it will be a $2,400 motor that will cost me 1/3 of that because I know the guy that is making it for me. And you know as much as cant stand low Rpm motors, I will end up buying one in the end, for a couple hundread more clams you can get reliable and not break down...I will have to look more into it. Sorry if I am narow minded at times, but years of inventing and focussing on dreams have took there toll on me. I am but one of many of the people that is a rare find in these days, I dont let the market stand in my way. I push things till they break and then understand what to make of it later.

I am very sorry I have hated on PbP over the years but I belive I have something to offer many of you have over looked, insane power. But for the most part just talking about the science and energy gets my rocks off. in the end I will have the most talked about bike on this forum come track days this year on the east coast. but in the end "Talk is cheep, actions just proove it"

Ex
 
#18 ·
I have said it befor and I will say it again, the reason I have no track time is because, I have no tracks in my area and the closest pocket bike track near me on the east coast is in NJ and the last time I went there was over a year ago and it took me 8 hours. Etown and Beaver run are the clesest tracks to me and bolth are out of state, so I need to bring something worth while, right
but in the end "Talk is cheep, actions just proove it"

Ex
Here is a happy medium: Make a weekend out of it. Most open practices are on Friday or Saturday night. That is what we did when we went out of state (to Cali)
There are two reasons for this.
1. To finally put faces with the screennames and actually meet fellow racers.
2. When it is actually time for competition, you will have already had some track time, and should have an idea of what type of gearing to run, etc.

ETown I believe has an open practice coming up. As I have stated before, it doesn't matter what you bring - fast, slow, there is no difference.(Remember people still ride cags)... Bring a bike that may not be the fastest to start, but you can possibly tweak for more power / speed...
Open practices are used as test and tune sessions, so just about everybody is working on their ride at some point. Some bikes don't even run until halfway through the session...
Believe me, there is a world of difference between racing by yourself and mixing it up with others on the track. I would be absolutely shocked if somebody didn't ask to ride it... (my electric X1 is pretty popular locally)
But know this - if it stays in the workshop, nobody will ever really know the potential that is there. You will never achieve what you desire if it never gets out for the masses to see. It only takes one to start a revolution...[speech over, off my soapbox]

As far as the travel: It is falling on deaf ears. I am not even trying to hear it. We have travelled across the US for a race (and soon to Canada) and went to NorCal just for a practice session. Sometimes you just gotta take a road trip...:thumbsup:
 
#19 ·
im just gonna add that after watching all people and racing on here, i was dying to race my bike
i had never raced it before but alot of guys were supposed to go to VIR so i made a plan and went
i didnt win or come close but i had a blast, met some cool people and never finished last
VIR is a nice track
 
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